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BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

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Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#141

Post by Arathorn »

msgilligan wrote: post #105
Pr0ject217 wrote: post #100

"Real time collaboration systems such as Microsoft Teams, Slack, Mattermost, Wire, Threema, WhatsApp and Signal are currently all closed proprietary systems - meaning they are walled gardens whereby all parties have to use the same vendor." Signal is in this list. Isn't this false? The server and clients are here: https://github.com/signalapp

Signal is (as far as I know) single-vendor, which they are confusingly calling “closed proprietary”

I wrote this sentence. “closed proprietary” here means that it’s not an open standard, and it’s not an open network you can connect your own clients to, and so it’s vendor-locked, and in the case of Signal there are gaps of years when they don’t release opensource code on the server.

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#143

Post by jll29 »

arrrg wrote: post #129
catiopatio wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t take a religious nut or a conspiracy theorist to see the catastrophically enormous downsides of universally mandated, centrally managed, and cryptographically-backed state identification cards, complete with RFID. Imagine, for example, that upon declaring a protest unlawful, the police could simply scan all the RFID-enabled ID cards in the area and issue everyone a court summons. Not carrying an ID card? N…

In Germany at least there are several measures in place to make this slippery slope a fallacy (as it usually is) and not realistic. You can pick whether you want to have an ID card or a passport or both. You are not required to carry your ID card with you. In general the actually existing surveillance of mobile phones that were in a certain area at a certain time is much more worrisome to me.

> You are not required to carry your ID card with you.

"I am not a lawyer" but:

"Deutsche im Sinne des Art. 116 Abs. 1 GG sind nach § 1 Personalausweisgesetz (PAuswG) verpflichtet, sobald sie 16 Jahre alt sind und der allgemeinen Meldepflicht unterliegen oder sich überwiegend in Deutschland aufhalten, einen gültigen Ausweis zu besitzen und ihn auf Verlangen einer zur Feststellung der Identität berechtigten Behörde vorzulegen sowie einen Abgleich mit dem Lichtbild des Ausweises zu ermöglichen."

You must either carry a national ID document or, if you are requested to identify yourself by the police, make it available to them in reasonable time on request (say, if you left it at home, show it to them at a police station the next day).

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#144

Post by LeonidasXIV »

wongarsu wrote: post #47
jonas-w wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currently the best way is via fax or post

*most convenient. The best option is obviously coming in person, with a ring binder containing all relevant documents as well as written records of all previous communication

Be sure to queue up 2h before opening time of the office you want to visit because everyone else is also dropping by in person too and the office closes for public service at 12:00.

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#145

Post by 8note »

catiopatio wrote: post #70
Pxtl wrote: post #58

Quoted post unavailable.

It doesn’t take a religious nut or a conspiracy theorist to see the catastrophically enormous downsides of universally mandated, centrally managed, and cryptographically-backed state identification cards, complete with RFID. Imagine, for example, that upon declaring a protest unlawful, the police could simply scan all the RFID-enabled ID cards in the area and issue everyone a court summons. Not carrying an ID card? N…

I don't think the government considers it much of an inconvenience to use violence to handle all of those things today.

Automatically issuing court summonses without first using chemical weapons and forced restraints is pretty good actually. If youre trying to make it so the government can't prosecute people for protests, you need to get rid of the idea of an illegal protest

The government can already torture, enslave, and kill you. If you can trust your government to handle those well, then this is no problem because they'll also handle ids responsibly.

If government can't handle those things well, the ids don't make for much of a change wrt to the government

The bigger disadvantages of a national id I think are that it moves ownership away from you, and to the card, like with block chain systems, the card is the owner, and you only have access to the card

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#146

Post by kune »

foepys wrote: post #38

Germany was quite advanced when it came to technology but then the drive to make more of it somehow stopped. It has always been incredibly sad to me that the German ID card (Personalausweis) has an RFID chip inside with trust zones, certificates, authorization features, and much more and just never had been used. Like at all except for getting cigarettes at vending machines. 12 years after the first RFID Personalausw…

I actually use my German ID card to communicate with the Elster service of the German tax offices. My old USB signing stick would need to be replaced next year, but using my ID card was the cheaper option.

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#147

Post by tpm »

foepys wrote: post #38

Germany was quite advanced when it came to technology but then the drive to make more of it somehow stopped. It has always been incredibly sad to me that the German ID card (Personalausweis) has an RFID chip inside with trust zones, certificates, authorization features, and much more and just never had been used. Like at all except for getting cigarettes at vending machines. 12 years after the first RFID Personalausw…

Many more applications will come in coming years. They are being implemented right now, I think this was sped up by some law that municipalities have to provide those services online by 2026? Not sure. Anyway there is a huge backlog and not enough programmers but one way or another this has to be done.

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#148

Post by 8note »

twblalock wrote: post #128
Fargren wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a strawman, and plainly untrue. Many countries have mandatory id. I have personally lived in Argentina and Spain, both of them have it, for close to a century (89 years in Spain, 54 years in Argentina, but it replaced a pre-exisitng system). The Spanish DNI has RFID. In neither place, nor any country with mandatory ID as far as I know, you get "no access to anything". The worst thing that can happen is that i…

Western Europe is one example where IDs have not been abused. But China is another example where they have been. If you give your governments tools that can be used for oppression, even if they aren’t abused today, it would make it easier for a new authoritarian government to abuse them later on. Spain was a dictatorship for much of the 20th century and Argentina had had multiple military dictatorships too — it could…

What's stopping a dictatorship from adding these things? It's very strange to assume a dictatorship would be so noble as to not add a tool for abuse, and you include the Chinese government as an example already.

Not adding it today does nothing to ensure a dictatorship cant use it in the future

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#149

Post by catiopatio »

arrrg wrote: post #129
catiopatio wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn’t take a religious nut or a conspiracy theorist to see the catastrophically enormous downsides of universally mandated, centrally managed, and cryptographically-backed state identification cards, complete with RFID. Imagine, for example, that upon declaring a protest unlawful, the police could simply scan all the RFID-enabled ID cards in the area and issue everyone a court summons. Not carrying an ID card? N…

In Germany at least there are several measures in place to make this slippery slope a fallacy (as it usually is) and not realistic. You can pick whether you want to have an ID card or a passport or both. You are not required to carry your ID card with you. In general the actually existing surveillance of mobile phones that were in a certain area at a certain time is much more worrisome to me.

How does that prevent anything?

An empty promise today is easily broken tomorrow. The best defense-in-depth against future abuse is not building the abusable system in the first place.

Adoption might start as a voluntary choice, but pervasive integration with other technology and services result in it becoming effectively mandatory.

> In general the actually existing surveillance of mobile phones that were in a certain area at a certain time is much more worrisome to me.

Integration of government ID with our smart phones is literally the next step:

https://learn.wallet.apple/id#states-list

Re: BundesMessenger, a secure messenger for Germany’s public administration

#150

Post by f1shy »

jll29 wrote: post #143
arrrg wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany at least there are several measures in place to make this slippery slope a fallacy (as it usually is) and not realistic. You can pick whether you want to have an ID card or a passport or both. You are not required to carry your ID card with you. In general the actually existing surveillance of mobile phones that were in a certain area at a certain time is much more worrisome to me.

> You are not required to carry your ID card with you. "I am not a lawyer" but: "Deutsche im Sinne des Art. 116 Abs. 1 GG sind nach § 1 Personalausweisgesetz (PAuswG) verpflichtet, sobald sie 16 Jahre alt sind und der allgemeinen Meldepflicht unterliegen oder sich überwiegend in Deutschland aufhalten, einen gültigen Ausweis zu besitzen und ihn auf Verlangen einer zur Feststellung der Identität berechtigten Behörde vo…

In the text says it clearly: you must have an ID, and you have to present it if requested. That does not means, you have to have it with you at all times.

Exactly this is the kind of fine details that a lawyer distinguishes in the law.

So no. Absolutely no. You do not have to carry it with you. If it comes to the need, then maybe the police have to scort you to your home and you have to show the ID. But you are not requested to have it with you at all times.

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