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Opening the North American charging standard

tesla.com

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Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#141

Post by matthewdgreen »

wilg wrote: post #136
matthewdgreen wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For legacy cars the likely answer is that people buy the $250 dongle. For new cars this will cost a few hundred bucks in parts and labor (or let's say 1-1.5% of the sales price) and it will be required surgery on your brand-new car. Who is going to pay for this? If it's Tesla, then the smart move is to put CCS into cars right now (and as a side benefit, standardize their US and European models [edit: nevermind this b…

They don't standardize US and Europe because US is CCS1 and Europe is CCS2.

Ugh god why. Didn't realize that. Rest of the point stands.

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#142

Post by rootusrootus »

systemvoltage wrote: post #19
zzzeek wrote: post #8

Quoted post unavailable.

This seems like a bad faith argument. It is more like here is a better design that's more compact and has more adoption, we're making it open standard for anyone to adopt.

You can't say "more adoption" with a serious face and accuse someone else of making a bad faith argument. You are carefully limiting your definition of adoption. It would be just as valid to point out that CCS1 has vastly more adoption, by using manufacturer as the metric.

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#143

Post by rootusrootus »

ip26 wrote: post #31
systemvoltage wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a bad faith argument. It is more like here is a better design that's more compact and has more adoption, we're making it open standard for anyone to adopt.

Yeah, with the standard open, if we also assume Tesla opens the supercharger network it’s kind of hard to see a great argument for CCS. Better plug, more users, more chargers. I’m biased, but I’ve also used all three plugs (CCS, J1772, NACS). NACS is the USB-C to the other two’s DVI.

> I’ve also used all three plugs (CCS, J1772, NACS)

Me too. The Tesla plug was the only one that ever got stuck in the car. So I don't know if I'd say that J1772 is strictly inferior.

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#144

Post by rootusrootus »

zzzeek wrote: post #8

Quoted post unavailable.

Tesla never had any intention of actually opening up their superchargers to non-Tesla vehicles. It runs strictly against their goal of selling more cars. That's why they're making an adapter to let their customers use the CCS networks, because otherwise the Supercharger network requirement starts to become a liability instead of an advantage.

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#145

Post by rootusrootus »

chrisseaton wrote: post #3

Why is CCS so absolutely enormous and so technically limited? What's the story behind how it got so bad? There must be some kind of trade-off Tesla took that CCS didn't?

> technically limited

Is it? I can go to a 350kW charger with CCS1. What's the max for a supercharger? 250kW?

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#146

Post by rootusrootus »

gibolt wrote: post #42
modeless wrote: post #35

I wish they had gotten more serious about this sooner. They had talked about offering the plug and network to other manufacturers before but there wasn't any movement on it. I expect that now it's too late and we'll be stuck with terrible CCS forever, but I'd be happy to be wrong.

Tesla is still >70% of EVs in the U.S. and Aptera has already adopted their plug (hopefully shipping soon). We are still within bounds of choosing the superior connector. It isn't too late like in Europe, especially since US bound vehicles are already using a different plug than their European counterparts

> Tesla is still >70% of EVs

Only by strict volume of cars on the road. Looking at manufacturers and models, they are just a tiny fraction of the market. And judging from how fast their market share is slipping, we're probably only a year or so from them being in the strict minority by any metric.

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#147

Post by lolc »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #105
zzzeek wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You’re confusing the CCS chargers outside of North America. The ones in NA are absolute trash and Tesla is right to try to kill them off as fast as possible before electric car volume that uses them becomes significant. noting that you appear to agree with my assessment that they want to kill off CCS and force all carmakers to use their ports as a means of avoiding having to change their own supercahrgers, otherwis…

> I'd prefer my car not be "killed off". > trashed This level of hyperbole makes it hard to take you seriously. Even if it was true, I think that would mean you're advocating for all the Teslas to be killed off, which I think would mean you're more wrong than they are!

They were reacting to the terms being used, not introducing them. Read the parent.

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#148

Post by Dylan16807 »

lolc wrote: post #147
Dylan16807 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd prefer my car not be "killed off". > trashed This level of hyperbole makes it hard to take you seriously. Even if it was true, I think that would mean you're advocating for all the Teslas to be killed off, which I think would mean you're more wrong than they are!

They were reacting to the terms being used, not introducing them. Read the parent.

1. The parent was talking about a plug not vehicles.

2. The parent of that parent was also by zzzeek, talking about trashing vehicles. And that was a top level comment.

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#149

Post by margalabargala »

chroma wrote: post #134
margalabargala wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, where in the US are you? Where I am (Oregon), public CCS charger locations outnumber Tesla chargers several times over. There are huge areas of the state that have CCS chargers, but no Tesla charging capacity. My next EV will certainly not be a Tesla, for that reason.

Tesla Superchargers outnumber all other HVDC chargers in every state, usually by a factor of 2. Maybe you're thinking of the chargers that use the J1772 connector?[1] Those charge via AC, and every Tesla comes with an adapter for them. Tesla also sells a CCS adapter in case you want to use other high voltage chargers such as Electrify America.[2] Though honestly, other charging networks are a shitshow. A friend of mi…

No, I'm not thinking of J1772 chargers. I'm thinking of CCS chargers.

We're talking about two different things.

You are talking about the count of chargers. Tesla has a higher quantity of chargers, yes. However, their chargers are concentrated; a single charging location has 30+ chargers. This drives their high charger count numbers.

CCS chargers are more geographically widespread. There are more locations with CCS chargers than with Tesla chargers. There are fewer CCS plugs in total, but you're more likely to be close to one.

It's more useful to have one fast-charging location with 3 plugs every 50 miles, than to have 500 fast-chargers next to one another in a single location and then nothing in a 200-mile radius.

If you go to plugshare.com and zoom in to Oregon, you can toggle back and forth between Tesla and CCS. There are very visibly way more discrete places in Oregon that have a CCS charger.

Re: Opening the North American charging standard

#150

Post by systemvoltage »

rootusrootus wrote: post #142
systemvoltage wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a bad faith argument. It is more like here is a better design that's more compact and has more adoption, we're making it open standard for anyone to adopt.

You can't say "more adoption" with a serious face and accuse someone else of making a bad faith argument. You are carefully limiting your definition of adoption. It would be just as valid to point out that CCS1 has vastly more adoption, by using manufacturer as the metric.

Jeez. Why are you guys so cynical? I am trying to assume the best of what the PR release says. No wonder this place is becoming toxic. It only raises my own cynisism that folks here are acting in bad faith because it is Tesla or some kind of an ideological trope people have gotten sucked into.

The parent comment is frothing with hate and bad faith.

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