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A requiem for amateur chemistry

lcamtuf.substack.com

141–150 of 156 posts

Re: A requiem for amateur chemistry

#141
post #65

Another aspect of this issue is the apparent difference in intellectual preparedness of kids today. I think this is partly due to educational environment and partly a result of selection bias (in that accounts of the past focus on the "smart" kids). When I was a teenager, rummaging around the attic at grandma's house I stumbled upon my dad's old scientific stuff. I was shocked at the sophistication of what a high sch…

Actually-educational things for kids haven't gone away entirely, though they've certainly changed shape. There are a lot of kids and teenager related products around programming and microcontroller-related hobby projects that teach and require deeper understanding of the concepts. Building a radio, on the other hand, when AM/FM radio is now 90-100 years old instead of 20-30... that wouldn't interest me nearly as much…

aside from the question of novelty, i think i can buy a pocket am/fm radio for us$6 today https://articulo.mercadolibre.com.ar/MLA-917855935-radio-por... so building a radio from scratch doesn't have the same cachet it had in the 01950s when a radio was a major household appliance people would save up for

you can definitely kit-build an am or fm radio from a kit without any understanding of the concepts, the radioshack '200-in-1' 'science fair' kit had wiring netlists for both am and fm radios, and didn't really explain the concepts. similarly you can solder together a microcontroller board and write circuitpython on it without any understanding of the concepts

in any of these cases there are a shitload of concepts to learn

i don't know much about chemistry but i think you have measurement error, valence electrons, vacuum filtration, density, oxidation states, precipitation, ph, solubility, activity, decantation, density, enthalpy, recrystallization, pressure, solubility product, never give an acid a drink, entropy, flasks bubbling over, gibbs free energy, hplc, equilibrium, distillation, the arrhenius law, sublimation, ligands, spectroscopy, differential scanning calorimetry, ...

in analog electronics you have measurement error, voltage, current, energy, capacitance, resistance, complex impedance, inductance, frequency, power, charge, parasitics, exponential decay, diffeqs, linear time-invariant systems, lti system transfer functions, convolution, the fourier transform, filtering, and only then do you get into nonlinear systems: rectification, inductive kick, transistor action, transistor switches, the ebers-moll model, miller capacitance, schmitt triggers, oscillators, etc. iirc that's just the first two chapters of horowitz and hill and there are thirteen more chapters and sixteen appendices. to be fair some of them are digital

in programming you have the whole programming iceberg at https://suricrasia.online/iceberg/. but even if you only get into the stuff that is actually involved in blinking an led on an esp32 as a microcontroller-related hobby project you have c, a compiler, a parser, context-free grammars, finite state machines, variables, lvalues vs. rvalues, subroutines, formal vs. actual parameters, arrays, hash tables, linked lists, pattern matching, optimizing transformations, denotational semantics, undefined behavior, structs, rtl, assembly language, machine code, symbol tables, linkers, register machines, propositional logic, de morgan's theorem, synchronous logic, metastable flip-flop states when crossing clock domains, jtag, debuggers, ram, flash, tcp/ip (tcp ip arp routing checksums ethernet), wi-fi, direct-sequence spread-spectrum communication, ofdm, shannon's theorem, csma/ca vs. csma/cd, pwm, etc

there's a shitload to learn but you can do stuff without knowing more than a tiny amount of it

Re: A requiem for amateur chemistry

#142
post #118
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't governments allow it when it's done under supervision?

At least in the US there are no regulations specifically stopping you from amateur chemistry. The challenges tend to be: - it’s hard (not impossible) to procure some chemicals because most suppliers will only sell to businesses - there are regulations around safety hazards like storage of flammable liquid in residential area (these are good regulations, I’d rather my neighbor isn’t storing 20 gals of ether for exampl…

where do you get cobalt, strontium, and rubidium

Re: A requiem for amateur chemistry

#143
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sorry i'm not sure whos comment to reply under - so i'll just stick it here - thanks for the explanations :) I am ignorant of maths, chem, comp science...so my question was posed purely for my own knowledge. What i described could be likened to raytracing for light...but for chemicals... If something like this is possible, would there be no use or other limitations to making a "descriptive" simulation. ie. libraries…

It's more like, we can do raytracing, but what's really needed here is simulating actual photons scattering, complete with all the quantum effects that involves.

That's a good response. I was trying to figure out how to reply, but didn't like anything I came up with. I would honestly have no idea on how to program a computer to simulate the individual atoms and the activity of their electrons. How to tell the computer when two atoms can bond with the sharing of an electron, how to tell it when a covalent bond can be made, etc. That's probably a lot to do with I barely understand it myself.

Also, I'd assume the the sim would assume all equipment is 100% pollutant free, all ingredients are 100% pure so that there is no adulterants being introduced to the formula. Also a room of perfect humidity and temperature etc.

Re: A requiem for amateur chemistry

#145
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that the one with the good manual? Most of these spring clip electronics sets come with pretty crappy manuals, very light on theory and with uninspired circuits (i.e. in "130 in 1" there are maybe 10 good circuits and endless variations of those). Whereas an Elenco brand kit I found at the thrift store came with a fantastic manual, that taught electronics right from the basics, using the kit's components to illust…

>an Elenco brand kit That's the one that I linked! I managed to find their manual online. https://www.manualslib.com/manual/235888/Elenco-Electronics-...

Yep, that's how I remember it (I passed the kit on to nephews in another town). An earnest attempt to teach electronics. Night-and-day difference to the typial Radio Shack N-in-1 kits.

Re: A requiem for amateur chemistry

#146
post #142
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in the US there are no regulations specifically stopping you from amateur chemistry. The challenges tend to be: - it’s hard (not impossible) to procure some chemicals because most suppliers will only sell to businesses - there are regulations around safety hazards like storage of flammable liquid in residential area (these are good regulations, I’d rather my neighbor isn’t storing 20 gals of ether for exampl…

where do you get cobalt, strontium, and rubidium

https://www.americanelements.com/strontium-metal-7440-24-6

Re: A requiem for amateur chemistry

#147
post #146
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

where do you get cobalt, strontium, and rubidium

https://www.americanelements.com/strontium-metal-7440-24-6

you said 'The other option is to just procure chemicals through other products. Naphtha is basically a mixture of hexanes. You can buy a lot of nitrate salts used for food or gardening. It’s not hard to procure metals.' but this americanelements link doesn't seem to be a case of 'procure chemicals through other products' but rather 'buy from a place that lists things by cas number and probably only sells to corporations'

Re: A requiem for amateur chemistry

#148
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually-educational things for kids haven't gone away entirely, though they've certainly changed shape. There are a lot of kids and teenager related products around programming and microcontroller-related hobby projects that teach and require deeper understanding of the concepts. Building a radio, on the other hand, when AM/FM radio is now 90-100 years old instead of 20-30... that wouldn't interest me nearly as much…

The mathematics of radios are a lot more difficult than the basic boolean logic and discrete math for intro to programming. Radios and circuits are in differential equations territory. A thorough explanation of the RF concept of "ground" and transmission lines is impossible to do at the high school level without handwaving away most of the details.

I'm not sure I follow. My father had a hobbyist radio kit in his youth, but he didn't understand all the details then. He later learned diffeq in college. It was and still is quite easy to build many already-discovered things without understanding them.

Re: A requiem for amateur chemistry

#149
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mathematics of radios are a lot more difficult than the basic boolean logic and discrete math for intro to programming. Radios and circuits are in differential equations territory. A thorough explanation of the RF concept of "ground" and transmission lines is impossible to do at the high school level without handwaving away most of the details.

I'm not sure I follow. My father had a hobbyist radio kit in his youth, but he didn't understand all the details then. He later learned diffeq in college. It was and still is quite easy to build many already-discovered things without understanding them.

You are thinking of assembling pre-made kits. The math is for designing circuits from scratch.

Re: A requiem for amateur chemistry

#150
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...it is not even the case that kids today were less educated either. This claim could be supported or contradicted by evidence. Do you have any? My experience is not K-12 education, but at the college level, standardized measures such as the GRE show declining levels of ability over the decades. A given score today doesn't mean the same as 40 years ago, because the test has needed to be recalibrated for a lower av…

Lower average could mean just that much more people have access to (higher) education now.

You are correct. It is generally believed that the large increase in percentage of students going to college is a major contributing factor in the decline of average performance. I have read reports claiming that secondary education at the very high end has retained its quality, but I haven't looked into that myself. So, it may be plausible to claim that while the average level of performance has declined, there is still the same population of high achievers in absolute numbers. I would be interested if somebody knows a good reference on that.
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