Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Address by the President of the Russian Federation

en.kremlin.ru

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 153 posts

Re: Address by the President of the Russian Federation

#141

Post by deepthunder »

alkonaut wrote: post #130
theironhammer wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Of course. It's their choice as a sovereign state to have any alliance with anyone" Really? So Canada can become a close ally of China? Maybe invite Chinese military to train Canadian troops? Maybe even allow the Chinese Navy to use Canadian ports? Is Canada "free" to do that? And there is Iraq. They were invaded because they had WMDs. Oops sorry Iraq we were wrong. Oh right Blair got Bush to get UN approval so they…

> And there is Iraq. They were invaded because they had WMDs. Oops sorry Iraq we were wrong That was an invasion on incorrect pretexts. But you are resorting to whataboutism again. Can one not condemn both invasions? Ukraine wasn’t part of the Iraq invasion… > Ukraine was a defacto NATO member before the invasion. No, NATO members are defended by the troops of other members, not just their money and equipment. You ar…

"That was an invasion on incorrect pretexts" Colin Powel knew beforehand that the evidence of WMDs was FAKE! That's why he demanded that the Director of the CIA sit right behind him within camera shot when he made the presentation on TV. It was a lie and Colin Powel knew it was a lie.

NATO members ARE helping Ukraine. They are behaving a lot like they would if Ukraine was an OFFICIAL member of NATO. They only reason they dont send troops is because Russia is a NUCLEAR power. Simple as that.

I'm not arguing whether the Invasion was good or bad or moral or immoral or justified or unjustified. I'm arguing that, over what the US has been doing in Ukraine for years was bound to provoke a Russian invasion.

International Relations is ruled by power not morals.

Re: Address by the President of the Russian Federation

#142

Post by trasz »

Garvi wrote: post #136
trasz wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's plenty of concrete information - like the fact that this is an artificial conflict manufactured by Russia, and it's perfectly normal to use artillery to fight enemy combatants - but you're ignoring it, because it doesn't fit your story which (I'm sure this is a pure coincidence) matches Russian propaganda. Same with alleged escalation, whereas the numbers show the exact opposite: the total number of people ki…

Can I get a source on the Russian nazi claim? It's the silliest of the claims you made and if you present a shred of evidence for it I'll reevaluate everything.

Oh, I’m sorry, me calling nationalistic genocide perpetrators “Nazis” was just a rhetorical figure here.

As for literal Russian Nazis: https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1572972414451027970 for just one example.

Re: Address by the President of the Russian Federation

#143

Post by alkonaut »

deepthunder wrote: post #138
alkonaut wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Defending the invasion is being a Russian shill. Arguing that policies have been poor isn’t. It’s possible that this war could have been avoided through different policies, but this is an unprovoked invasion. Arguing it somehow has any responsibility outside Russia is like arguing rape victims should have dressed more appropriately.

Unprovoked? Have a read through these: https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2022/09/07/its-not-okay-for-gro... Rand Corporation https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB10014.html https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR3063.html

By unprovoked I mean “no one walked into Russia or committed any acts of war against Russia”

It’s a term that’s used as “justified”.

Re: Address by the President of the Russian Federation

#144

Post by alkonaut »

deepthunder wrote: post #141
alkonaut wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And there is Iraq. They were invaded because they had WMDs. Oops sorry Iraq we were wrong That was an invasion on incorrect pretexts. But you are resorting to whataboutism again. Can one not condemn both invasions? Ukraine wasn’t part of the Iraq invasion… > Ukraine was a defacto NATO member before the invasion. No, NATO members are defended by the troops of other members, not just their money and equipment. You ar…

"That was an invasion on incorrect pretexts" Colin Powel knew beforehand that the evidence of WMDs was FAKE! That's why he demanded that the Director of the CIA sit right behind him within camera shot when he made the presentation on TV. It was a lie and Colin Powel knew it was a lie. NATO members ARE helping Ukraine. They are behaving a lot like they would if Ukraine was an OFFICIAL member of NATO. They only reason…

I’m only arguing the invasion is a violation of international law.

Of course power is a layer on top of that, but we don’t sit idly watching countries being invaded.

The question at this point is: should the international community be ready to accept (any) escalation in order to restore Ukraine’s territorial integrity (1991 borders)? And that’s mostly up to Ukraine who suffers most of the sacrifices, but the answer must be yes. We must ensure this example is made. I’m more afraid of a world where Russia annexes an inch of Donbas than even direct conflict between NATO and Russia.

I’m arguing that at the end of the day “spheres of influence” or “buffer zones” aren’t relevant concepts here. Basically: borders are holy, cross one and that’s it.

The mistake the West has made here is not suring up Ukraines borders sooner, and of course not reacting stronger when Crimea was invaded. That invasion should have come with all the sanctions we see now, and more.

Re: Address by the President of the Russian Federation

#145

Post by Garvi »

trasz wrote: post #142
Garvi wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I get a source on the Russian nazi claim? It's the silliest of the claims you made and if you present a shred of evidence for it I'll reevaluate everything.

Oh, I’m sorry, me calling nationalistic genocide perpetrators “Nazis” was just a rhetorical figure here. As for literal Russian Nazis: https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1572972414451027970 for just one example.

A thing the psyche does is make people willing to accept any information that supports their views without questioning where it came from, while at the same time dismissing any piece of information that contradicts it, also without having the mental fortitude to check. It's easier to hide and feel strong in a crows than to stand alone with your views. That's why the artificial echo chambers in social media, that all the censorship created, are so effective.

I did some light digging with the information you provided. The source is not an "independent researched", but a member of a Washington based think tank "The Woodrow Wilson Center". Literally everything he wrote in the past years was slandering Russia. Where did you think the gigantic budget of the CIA went?

The proof you provided is a telegram screenshot. You want me to make one that reads "Russian troops offering lollipops to Ukranian POWs"? Should take the average ycombinator reader minutes to whip up such a picture. You should know better.

Re: Address by the President of the Russian Federation

#146

Post by Garvi »

The_Stone wrote: post #137
Garvi wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There you go: https://reclaimthenet.org/youtube-removes-ukraine-on-fire-do... I already explained my motivations behind what you describe as "acting in bad faith or arrogance" and would rather not be going in circles.

Thank you for providing a source. Although, the claims of censorship here appear hollow per checking currently - - It's available on youtube at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKcmNGvaDUs and was posted in April 2021 - It's searchable on Amazon currently despite being blocked in March of this year per the archived result in the article: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Ukraine+on+Fire&rh=n%3A2625373011... This feels out of…

the claims of censorship here appear hollow

Please do realize you didn't check any of my points. Found any footage of Merkel in Kyiv that millions remember from weeks of news coverage, but apparently never happened? What percentage of the global economy is the weapons industry? I could continue with more concrete examples of censorship, but we can't even tackle any basics as they are getting ignored.

Re: Address by the President of the Russian Federation

#147

Post by _kbh_ »

deepthunder wrote: post #141
alkonaut wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And there is Iraq. They were invaded because they had WMDs. Oops sorry Iraq we were wrong That was an invasion on incorrect pretexts. But you are resorting to whataboutism again. Can one not condemn both invasions? Ukraine wasn’t part of the Iraq invasion… > Ukraine was a defacto NATO member before the invasion. No, NATO members are defended by the troops of other members, not just their money and equipment. You ar…

"That was an invasion on incorrect pretexts" Colin Powel knew beforehand that the evidence of WMDs was FAKE! That's why he demanded that the Director of the CIA sit right behind him within camera shot when he made the presentation on TV. It was a lie and Colin Powel knew it was a lie. NATO members ARE helping Ukraine. They are behaving a lot like they would if Ukraine was an OFFICIAL member of NATO. They only reason…

> NATO members ARE helping Ukraine. They are behaving a lot like they would if Ukraine was an OFFICIAL member of NATO.

They are behaving like Ukraine is a country that is friendly towards NATO but not a member.

> They only reason they dont send troops is because Russia is a NUCLEAR power. Simple as that.

You know that the entire reason for NATO was to stave of the USSR and now Russia right?, saying 'NATO won't intervene with a nuclear power' is useless when your alliance was literally formed to fight a nuclear power.

NATO isn't intervening because Ukraine isn't a member, is that simple.

> I'm not arguing whether the Invasion was good or bad or moral or immoral or justified or unjustified. I'm arguing that, over what the US has been doing in Ukraine for years was bound to provoke a Russian invasion.

no one did anything 'provoke' an invasion, that just removes all agency from Russia itself, and Ukraine. Russia is the sole entity that decided to invade, no one else made that decision for them.

Russia is the one solely to blame for all the war crimes that are being committed in Ukraine right.

> International Relations is ruled by power not morals.

Then clearly Russia is going to be knocked down a beg in international relations, because its quite clear that Russias army cannot even get to a city less then 300km from there border in 6 months, and not even against, but against a country using second rate NATO gear.

Re: Address by the President of the Russian Federation

#148

Post by trasz »

Garvi wrote: post #145
trasz wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I’m sorry, me calling nationalistic genocide perpetrators “Nazis” was just a rhetorical figure here. As for literal Russian Nazis: https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1572972414451027970 for just one example.

A thing the psyche does is make people willing to accept any information that supports their views without questioning where it came from, while at the same time dismissing any piece of information that contradicts it, also without having the mental fortitude to check. It's easier to hide and feel strong in a crows than to stand alone with your views. That's why the artificial echo chambers in social media, that all…

So it was CIA who murdered Bucha residents, not Russians?

Re: Address by the President of the Russian Federation

#149

Post by Mikeb85 »

trasz wrote: post #148
Garvi wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A thing the psyche does is make people willing to accept any information that supports their views without questioning where it came from, while at the same time dismissing any piece of information that contradicts it, also without having the mental fortitude to check. It's easier to hide and feel strong in a crows than to stand alone with your views. That's why the artificial echo chambers in social media, that all…

So it was CIA who murdered Bucha residents, not Russians?

Propaganda's a hell of a drug eh?

Re: Address by the President of the Russian Federation

#150

Post by namelessoracle »

skissane wrote: post #107
namelessoracle wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats irrelevant to the decision points Putin has in front of him. It's pretty clear he thought he would just roll in and take over Ukraine in the first month, the West seemed to think so too. Now thats not true and it's clearly a mistake what are his options? Withdrawal and losing is likely to end up with him dead, maybe his family too. Keeping at it MIGHT still see him win the day, especially if energy prices in Eu…

> Withdrawal and losing is likely to end up with him dead, maybe his family too. I think the number one reason he doesn't quit, is not fear of being killed, it is the damage quitting would do to his ego and reputation. Is death the thing that scares Putin the most? Maybe, his reputation is more important to him than his life. And if he really wanted to go, I'm sure some Middle Eastern country would be happy to grant…

A man who made people sit VERY far away from him and went into hardcore isolation in 2020 due to fear of covid is clearly signaling he cares very much for his health/life. I think its a 2 for 1 thing though. He cares for his life and his reputation, and this is a threat to both. Maybe he would be ok with dying if he was the great Hero of Russia, but this wouldn't be that.

I also don't think he would be safe at all in any country. Russia has openly poisoned people in Great Britain, you think they would care about some Middle Eastern country? And it's likely Russia who would go after him. And people would laugh and say it's just desserts, even people in the international community. What bribes can he grant once he is out of power that would make people want to protect him? Only thing I could see is if he gave nuclear weapons to some countries in violation of the Nuclear Proliferation treaties in exchange for protection.

Post reply on HN