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Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

reuters.com

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Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#141

Post by effie »

ben_w wrote: post #39
Longhanks wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Couldn’t Texas exit the US in the same way that European countries can exit the EU?

No, the EU has a specific process for leaving by asking, while the US states can only leave if a sufficient number of the other states agree to it. The EU isn't really a country, it's a free trade agreement with an unusually democratic (by the standard of FTAs) process for updating its own rules.

Indeed it is not a country. But democratic process is a very wrong word here, even with the adjective "representative". The EU process for updating its own rules is a bureaucracy directed by prime ministers, and those influenced/controlled by powerful groups. E.g. Scholz and Macron pushing for federalization and weakening the power of states - this is great for EU apparatus and those wanting to make it stronger, but state citizens do not want this.

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#142

Post by uhuruity »

int_19h wrote: post #110

There's a curious comment on that article from a person in support of that retention law: "Google can do that [blanket data collection], my Chinese mobile phone manufacturer too, why shouldn't the government be able to do it?" Something to ponder when we talk about data collection by private parties: like it or not, it does provide justification for governments doing the same.

Governments have a monopoly on (legal) violence, and by default it's not possible to move countries (that is, unless you get a visa or live in a free movement area). I think it's reasonable to hold governments to a qualitatively higher standard than companies.

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#143

Post by ben_w »

effie wrote: post #141
ben_w wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the EU has a specific process for leaving by asking, while the US states can only leave if a sufficient number of the other states agree to it. The EU isn't really a country, it's a free trade agreement with an unusually democratic (by the standard of FTAs) process for updating its own rules.

Indeed it is not a country. But democratic process is a very wrong word here, even with the adjective "representative". The EU process for updating its own rules is a bureaucracy directed by prime ministers, and those influenced/controlled by powerful groups. E.g. Scholz and Macron pushing for federalization and weakening the power of states - this is great for EU apparatus and those wanting to make it stronger, but…

Can you name any trade agreement with a more democratic process?

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#144

Post by Sebb767 »

superjan wrote: post #131
int_19h wrote: post #110

There's a curious comment on that article from a person in support of that retention law: "Google can do that [blanket data collection], my Chinese mobile phone manufacturer too, why shouldn't the government be able to do it?" Something to ponder when we talk about data collection by private parties: like it or not, it does provide justification for governments doing the same.

It works the other way too: If a politician objects to FAANG privacy violations, they should not introduce laws that allow such violations themselves.

Of course they can. It makes sense for the government to be able to arrest people, but I absolutely don't want to give corporations that right (especially not FAANG - judicial systems a bad enough as is, but Google's customer support is still a downgrade).

The government and the private sector are very different and what one of them can and can't do is not necessarily related to whether the other should or shouldn't be able to.

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#145

Post by Sebb767 »

omgomgomgomg wrote: post #103

Yet another time Germany needs external intervention measures to get in line. Time and time again, history has proven everywhere that if the population does not keep their politicians in line, they will get drunk from all the power.The people do not even vote reasonably, so it is very difficult. Have these lawmakers ever presented good results which can be attributed to their work?

> The people do not even vote reasonably, so it is very difficult.

You get three votes [0] every four to five years, where you need to vouch for someone from a short list to make all the choices to represent you. And this is actually the good case, in the US it's reduced to just two options. Deciding whether someone votes reasonably is very hard when they weigh certain decisions (and how likely politicians are to keep their promises) completely different.

Just as an example, you might say that you think climate change is the most important topic overall right now, so you vote for the German Green party - except, of course, if you doubt that they'll actually change much or if you think that nuclear power is the answer, which they don't like. So you think of voting for a small party, but they'll be in the opposition at best, but most likely not even hit 5%, making your vote nothing more than a gesture completely ignored by the ruling parties. So what's the unreasonable choice here?

Long story short, what I'm trying to say is that whenever I heard the accusation of people voting unreasonably, so far, the actual argument always was "people disagree with my [clearly optimal] opinion or voting strategy".

[0] Local, federal and state each.

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#146

Post by rad_gruchalski »

Let’s not forget: we are talking about a country where every visit to a new doctor results in having to sign a Datenschutz form in order to agree to data processing. This is a country where personal data supposed to be saint. Double standards.

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#147

Post by trinsic2 »

djbebs wrote: post #81
themitigating wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming there's a choice, I'm not familiar with Chinese elections, then yes. Why not vote? What is the advantage of that?

Voting provides legitimacy to the winner of the election and to the election process itself. If you disagree with both of those things, voting has no positive and results only in negatives.

Its been my understanding that political parties have interests that are completely separate from the will of the people, even though campaigns say otherwise, and no amount of change is going to fix that problem.

Also any changes that come from those institutions follow the real progress that gets made by common people.

"A wise man will not leave the right to the mercy of chance, nor wish it to prevail through the power of the majority. There is but little virtue in the action of masses of men. When the majority shall at length vote for the abolition of slavery, it will be because they are indifferent to slavery, or because there is but little slavery left to be abolished by their vote. They will then be the only slaves. Only his vote can hasten the abolition of slavery who asserts his own freedom by his vote." - Henry David Thoreau

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#148

Post by effie »

ben_w wrote: post #143
effie wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed it is not a country. But democratic process is a very wrong word here, even with the adjective "representative". The EU process for updating its own rules is a bureaucracy directed by prime ministers, and those influenced/controlled by powerful groups. E.g. Scholz and Macron pushing for federalization and weakening the power of states - this is great for EU apparatus and those wanting to make it stronger, but…

Can you name any trade agreement with a more democratic process?

I wouldn't connect those concepts at all. Democratic process is expected in a state that proclaims to be a democracy. Not in a trade agreement of multiple states. Also, EU is not just a trade agreement.

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#149

Post by edgyquant »

tomrod wrote: post #135
joker99 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do, pretty much the same as your situation. However, it doesn't happen very often that the Bundespräsident actually does this. Their role is almost purely ceremonial and I could count the cases on one hand where they used this power. Some legal professionals argue, that this check is basically a ceremonial one as well.

If one thing I've learned the past decade, it is that "ceremonial" functions can be disrupted by people who don't respect the precedent.

Can you give an example where this has been the case? That a ceremonial monarch or executive is now an active participant in government?

Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says

#150

Post by edgyquant »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #12
Semaphor wrote: post #3

Our data retention laws get overturned all the time. Usually already by our constitutional courts. Sadly our politicians don’t care much and don’t get punished, so they just try it again and again and again and usually it’s in effect for a while before the courts give judgement. I really can’t explain where Politikverdrossenheit (political apathy) comes from. edit: The last sentence is sarcasm

> I really can’t explain where Politikverdrossenheit (political apathy) comes from. I understand... it's simple... someone does something bad, nothing happens to them... bad thing again... nothing happens... people protest... nothing happens... bad thing again.. nothing happens... If this was some other timeline, and people brought guillotines out every couple of years and "dealt with" the "bad" politicians in "the f…

The reason we don’t guillotine people is because Robespierre guillotined everyone and now we know that murdering people politically is an addictive substance.

Also let’s be clear, the reign of terror was an absolute shit show in every since of the word as was killing the king. 30 years of war just to have another monarchy to overthrow isn’t exactly a great move.

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