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Part of my code makes Copilot crash

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141–150 of 411 posts

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is because sometimes even a perfectly reasonable inference from an ML model would be considered a big mistake due to societal considerations that are unknown to the model. For example, a couple years ago, there was a big hubbub over a Google Image labeler that labeled a black man and woman as "gorillas". A mistake for sure, but the headlines about the algorithm being "racist" were wrong. The algorithm was c…

The actual racist thing is that humans who don’t consider or prepare for or include affected people in deciding to deploy models trained to produce racist outcomes. It doesn’t matter that the machine has no opinions, it matters that the machine produces outcomes reflecting harmful biases. Banning the word doesn’t change that, but neither does treating the biased process as unbiased.

The models output isnt racist. Racism has intent, the algo doesn't.

It can be wrong or right but it is not making a judgment based on anything outside of math.

You are correct to say the training wasn't complete but that doesn't mean anyone did anything wrong, racist, or hateful... 99% of the time it's simply a mistake.

When you label things like that as racist instead of simply mistakes you water that word down to the point where it becomes meaningless.

The problem in the last 10+ yrs of outrage internet social justice is that in order to gain attention and get traction those involved have lumped so many things into terms like racism that that it eventually becomes so stretched it's meaningless.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#142

Aren't we missing the forest for the trees here? We're zeroing in on how silly is it for copilot to trigger its content filter on the word "gender". To me the real issue is that copilot has a content filter in the first place. It's unwelcome and unnecessary.

There’s a zealous push by a small but extremely vocal fringe to impose their very particular worldview onto emerging AI/ML models like this. They refer to it as “eliminating bias”, but it’s really just an attempt to mold these new technologies into conformance with one very specific set of ideological commitments. Proponents view it as some kind of obvious universal good, and are confused when anyone else is appalled…

> They refer to it as “eliminating bias”,

I don't think, e.g. being able to handle black faces correctly is some sort of massive ideological commitment. So let's not pretend that the entire concern of bias in AI is irrelevant, no matter where you stand on gender.

> conformance with one very specific set of ideological commitments

You know-- let's just talk about basic respect and dignity: if someone strongly wants to be referred to in a particular way, the polite response is to respect their wishes. If there's a lot of people in this category, it makes sense for your system to address it.

If you instead build your system in a way that you don't achieve this, you're being rude. If you use old training data and refer to people as a "Mongoloid" as a result-- don't be surprised that people are offended. Ditto, if you use old training data about gender that doesn't match many peoples' current expectations.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#145
post #122

So I've just tested it, and I can confirm, yes, copilot refuses to give suggestions related to gender. Now I know a lot of people are calling this absurd, but looking more closely, there are two PR nightmare scenarios. 1. Copilot makes a suggestion that implies gender is binary, a certain community explodes with anger and an entire news hype cycle starts about how Microsoft is enforcing views on gender with code. 2.…

The nightmare scenario is caving to either mob. There is no good reason to moderate this.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#146
post #122

So I've just tested it, and I can confirm, yes, copilot refuses to give suggestions related to gender. Now I know a lot of people are calling this absurd, but looking more closely, there are two PR nightmare scenarios. 1. Copilot makes a suggestion that implies gender is binary, a certain community explodes with anger and an entire news hype cycle starts about how Microsoft is enforcing views on gender with code. 2.…

Those aren’t the only options. You can just let it suggest what it is going to suggest. Copilot is a product for adults who should be able to comprehend what machine learning is. Anybody who throws a fit about it will only be exposing themselves as a fool.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#147

Besides the absurdity of the code crashing because of the word "gender". My problem and curiosity with all of this is... "What was going on in the head of the person writing the parser?" I mean, were they thinking that if someone is writing code, let's say, for a gender dropdown and it was only ["male", "female"], it would try to suggest to us to add 26 more genders instead (and worse, suggest a list of genders to ad…

Chances are it was the opposite

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#148

Can we get a source for that? Because at the moment, it's just a comment made by a person on the internet with nothing backing it up...

It’s interesting how unsubstantiated allegations are getting so much attention, especially on a site with such high quality discussion.

It looks like several commenters have been able to reproduce the problem, so in that sense I guess it's substantiated?

If people were trying to reproduce it and failing, I agree with you that would be a different story.

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#149

Aren't we missing the forest for the trees here? We're zeroing in on how silly is it for copilot to trigger its content filter on the word "gender". To me the real issue is that copilot has a content filter in the first place. It's unwelcome and unnecessary.

Bingo

Re: Part of my code makes Copilot crash

#150

Aren't we missing the forest for the trees here? We're zeroing in on how silly is it for copilot to trigger its content filter on the word "gender". To me the real issue is that copilot has a content filter in the first place. It's unwelcome and unnecessary.

There’s a zealous push by a small but extremely vocal fringe to impose their very particular worldview onto emerging AI/ML models like this. They refer to it as “eliminating bias”, but it’s really just an attempt to mold these new technologies into conformance with one very specific set of ideological commitments. Proponents view it as some kind of obvious universal good, and are confused when anyone else is appalled…

> They refer to it as “eliminating bias”, but it’s really just an attempt to mold these new technologies into conformance with one very specific set of ideological commitments.

It is quite literally creating bias.

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