In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions • Hacker News Board

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#141

Post by TheMagicHorsey » Tue, Aug 02, 2022, 3:55 PM UTC

The racism narrative is so flawed in America. Go back and look at how Chinese were referred to in early American literature and news. They were not considered equals either. But they performed disproportianately well wherever they went, and so they overcame whatever innate aversion Americans had towards them. Now there's a positive discrimination towards them.

It's been a similar case for Eastern European Jews, Russians, Indians, etc.

I don't understand why Hispanics should get a leg up in admissions just because they haven't gotten into schools in a high enough proportion. It seems to me the issue is supply side. You need to change the number of qualified applicants by convincing more kids to focus on college admissions.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#142

Post by xiande04 » Tue, Aug 02, 2022, 3:56 PM UTC

TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #94

xiande04 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the goal of using race in admissions is more about giving disadvantaged people an advantage rather than increasing "diversity of thought".

Yeah, but it leads to absurd results, where the black daughter of two doctors, with 500K+ in annual family income is given preferential treatment, while the Chinese-American son of a janitor is discriminated against.

Do you have any proof of that being the case? If the Chinese son makes it clear to the admission team about the hardships he overcame, surely that would be to his advantage.

Completely anecdotally, but I had two Asian colleagues from poor households. One got a full ride to Harvard and the other to MIT. Whereas, the smartest person I've ever personally known was accepted to Harvard but not given any financial aid. He was a white male with a drug-addicted mom raised by his grandma in the slums.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#143

Post by gamblor956 » Tue, Aug 02, 2022, 3:56 PM UTC

TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #79

btilly wrote: post #33

To quote from the brief. Unlike applicants whose identities have been affected mainly by their socioeconomic or geographic circumstances, applicants whose formative experiences relate to race or ethnicity would be denied the opportunity to convey their full, authentic selves when competing for admission to selective schools like Amici. And so we guarantee that millions of Americans will have a formative experience th…

I really don't understand current progressive ideology. Apart from discrimination against Asians, there is also the whole "Hijab empowers women" nonsense. I come from a part of the world where women have to fight for the right to take off hijab. They are shunned socially for doing so. In worse places, they can be jailed or beaten. Imagine coming from such a place to America, and seeing here women are wearing that sym…

You don't understand it because your understanding of it is wrong.

The point isn't that the "hijab empowers women." The point is that a woman should be able to choose for herself whether to wear the hijab or not. Autonomy, and all that.

Telling a Muslim woman she can't wear a hijab is just as oppressive as telling one she must wear it.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#144

Post by TameAntelope » Tue, Aug 02, 2022, 3:56 PM UTC

zmgsabst wrote: post #140

TameAntelope wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Quoted post unavailable.

You are not. You think you are, but you are not.

Also, the Civil Rights Act was passed in a time of extreme racism (necessarily, otherwise the laws wouldn't have been needed), society has advanced substantially since then, as has our thinking about what racism is and how it affects society.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#145

Post by notch656a » Tue, Aug 02, 2022, 3:56 PM UTC

light_hue_1 wrote: post #113

dilap wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We discriminated against blacks in the past, so whites and asians deserve to be discriminated against in the present. Is this your position?

> We discriminated against blacks in the past, so whites and asians deserve to be discriminated against in the present. Is this your position? White people took everything for hundreds of years. Then, they turned around and said "Oh look, we own everything but let's just forget about skin color now". Discrimination resulted in massive inequality. The median net worth of a white family is $200k. The median net worth o…

I hear Liberia is nice. They speak English and persons of black color have held key political positions for over a hundred years. Former slaves held a great deal of the power there so that should be a great leg up for anybody who can't wait for the slow movement of the wheels of progress stateside. They've also codified white people can't be citizens, so that's one less worry in ways white folk can upset the country.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#146

Post by TheMagicHorsey » Tue, Aug 02, 2022, 3:56 PM UTC

mbg721 wrote: post #100

TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but it leads to absurd results, where the black daughter of two doctors, with 500K+ in annual family income is given preferential treatment, while the Chinese-American son of a janitor is discriminated against.

But he has privilege, and she doesn't.

Yeah, but why are Chinese considered privileged now, when before they were not?

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#147

Post by golemotron » Tue, Aug 02, 2022, 3:57 PM UTC

GenerocUsername wrote: post #122

Kuntz Law: in ANY/ALL resource constrained systems, giving advantage to 1 individual directly gives disadvantage to another. This is true whether it is seats on a bus, distribution of aid money, or college admission. You cannot give race based preference without simultaneously race based discrimination

That's true and the reason why the real answer is dealing with the resource constraints. Economic growth solves a lot of problems.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#148

Post by zo1 » Tue, Aug 02, 2022, 3:57 PM UTC

scythe wrote: post #72

aceHN wrote: post #48

If your goal is equal opportunity you can look at socioeconomic class without considering race. Fundamentally the idea that race must be considered to achieve diversity is an inherently racist idea - you don't believe some races will get in without help.

It should be noted that neither class nor race is a reindeer-style glowing red nose. There's an recent trend in England of people faking lower-class roots to take advantage of targeted programs, and there are indicators that white Americans are pretending Native ancestry for college admission.

Ignore that background too then. Just use parental or individual income and have some sort of scale, done. This isn't rocket science and the fact that we have to argue about blatantly obvious racism and favoritism just shows how much we've been gas-lighted, and we've had our good intentions twisted and actively exploited by those that benefit from this.

Many years from now, we will be holding these black people accountable for the generational harm and un-earned benefits they've stolen from our current generation's youth.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#149

Post by nailer » Tue, Aug 02, 2022, 3:57 PM UTC

MSFT_Edging wrote: post #127

aceHN wrote: post #48

If your goal is equal opportunity you can look at socioeconomic class without considering race. Fundamentally the idea that race must be considered to achieve diversity is an inherently racist idea - you don't believe some races will get in without help.

In the US, race is very much tied to socioeconomic status and class. It's not a 100% indicator, but its essentially what the quoteunquote CRT in schools was meant to show. Many black communities are not poor simply because they're poor, but of on-the-books policies of redlining, discrimination, and overpolicing that enabled a wealth gap to form in the post-war period. Many white families were able to buy houses, buil…

> In the US, race is very much tied to socioeconomic status and class.

Great! So looking at socioeconomic status will also address socioeconomic status caused by racial discrimination. Glad you understand and agree with the parent.

Re: In Supreme Court brief, Yale and peers defend use of race in admissions

#150

Post by zmgsabst » Tue, Aug 02, 2022, 3:57 PM UTC

TameAntelope wrote: post #144

zmgsabst wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

You are not. You think you are, but you are not. Also, the Civil Rights Act was passed in a time of extreme racism (necessarily, otherwise the laws wouldn't have been needed), society has advanced substantially since then, as has our thinking about what racism is and how it affects society.

No post body was provided.