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Toyota RAV4 Prime hybrid SUV now selling for 48% over MSRP

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Re: Toyota RAV4 Prime hybrid SUV now selling for 48% over MSRP

#141

Post by timothyb89 »

frumper wrote: post #107
thinkling wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At Toyota dealers you pay over MSRP, at Tesla they just repeatedly raise the MSRP...

Tesla honors the price you order your Model Y at. Mine took about 3 months to get and the price did go up once during that time. I paid the original price. Fun surprise ordering a Mach-E/F-150 Lightning and the dealer charges the market adjustment on your custom ordered car. No where is that fee disclosed until you go down to the dealership to pick it up.

Most dealers don't do this, though admittedly as another commenter mentioned, this isn't stopping the all the less scrupulous dealers.

I paid MSRP for a Mach E I ordered online with relatively little fanfare, albeit with a ~10 month wait and a model year bump (for which Ford gave me a discount off the slightly higher MSRP).

Re: Toyota RAV4 Prime hybrid SUV now selling for 48% over MSRP

#142

Post by oneoff786 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #33
oneoff786 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Market conditions by an enforced middle man

The market conditions are set by the number of people trying to buy the cars and how much they're willing to pay. The dealership meets the market price, not sets it. If their fee was unreasonable people would buy other cars until the dealer dropped their prices to something reasonable.

If you’re an emotionless rationalist sure

Re: Toyota RAV4 Prime hybrid SUV now selling for 48% over MSRP

#143

Post by jnwatson »

ParksNet wrote: post #28
flurie wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This price tracker[1] shows that the price of the Model Y has increased about 9-12k depending on trim over the past year. Are you happy because that's less than 15k? [1] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1F5IQOynIawoXiJPVarLD...

Better that excess demand is captured by the manufacturer, which can be reinvested into manufacturing, than the dealer. I far prefer the transparent pricing of Tesla, and its now the only manufacturer I'd consider buying from in the USA.

Right now, pricing is the most transparent it has ever been among traditional dealers. For most new cars, you pay MSRP.

Re: Toyota RAV4 Prime hybrid SUV now selling for 48% over MSRP

#144

Post by BobLaw »

roody15 wrote: post #115
BobLaw wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many states car dealers are either the single largest or one of the largest groups that donates to state and local politicians. They use those markups to make massive donations to politicians ensuring there are middle men laws on the books guaranteeing they can continue to charge more markups in the future. Many people would rather their money go to the people actually designing and building the product their buyi…

The idea of dealerships was to force car companies to spread the wealth. For example if you purchase a car at a local dealer all the sales tax goes to the local taxing body (city / sometimes county). This generates a huge amount of money for public services. Additionally the employees of the dealerships typically live in the same region further spreading the wealth. Yes buying direct from dealer would be cheaper but…

Uhh no that's not at all correct. The taxes are paid to whatever jurisdiction you register your car. If you live in Texas and you buy a car in Wyoming the Taxes get paid to you local tax accessor. It doesn't matter if you buy it from a dealership or a manufacturer.

Manufacturers also have employees in the regions they sell because they need staff for their delivery and service centers at minimum.

The history of how we got here with dealership laws is long and complicated but basically boils down to starting with something useful like a verifiable local agent in a time when many small car manufacturers were selling essentially carts with primitive engines through mail order catalogs. Then slowly gaining political and economic power and protecting that power through local and state laws limiting competition and legally enforced monopolies. In short, corruption.

You'll notice many influential and wealthy lawmakers in state governments own dealerships. Unsurprisingly they're near uniformly anti-taxes and 'big government' so the "but dealership pay taxes" argument rarely holds sway as they're constantly fighting against it.

https://pressbooks.ulib.csuohio.edu/evolution-of-local-deale...

Re: Toyota RAV4 Prime hybrid SUV now selling for 48% over MSRP

#145

Post by niij »

roody15 wrote: post #115
BobLaw wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In many states car dealers are either the single largest or one of the largest groups that donates to state and local politicians. They use those markups to make massive donations to politicians ensuring there are middle men laws on the books guaranteeing they can continue to charge more markups in the future. Many people would rather their money go to the people actually designing and building the product their buyi…

The idea of dealerships was to force car companies to spread the wealth. For example if you purchase a car at a local dealer all the sales tax goes to the local taxing body (city / sometimes county). This generates a huge amount of money for public services. Additionally the employees of the dealerships typically live in the same region further spreading the wealth. Yes buying direct from dealer would be cheaper but…

Sales (or use) tax, at least in the U.S., goes to the jurisdiction you reside in. The location you bought it from is irrelevant.

Re: Toyota RAV4 Prime hybrid SUV now selling for 48% over MSRP

#146

Post by _ea1k »

pixl97 wrote: post #124
frumper wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla honors the price you order your Model Y at. Mine took about 3 months to get and the price did go up once during that time. I paid the original price. Fun surprise ordering a Mach-E/F-150 Lightning and the dealer charges the market adjustment on your custom ordered car. No where is that fee disclosed until you go down to the dealership to pick it up.

Eh, that doesn't even seem legal? Unless it's in a contract somewhere in very very small text.

With the Silverado EV, the fine print says this: "Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price excludes destination freight charge, tax, title, license, dealer fees, optional equipment, and other options. Participating dealer determines final price. Estimated Destination Freight Charge is $1,695; subject to change"

They are making it fairly clear that the dealer ultimately gets to set the sales price, even for reservation from before the launch.

Re: Toyota RAV4 Prime hybrid SUV now selling for 48% over MSRP

#147

Post by greedo »

NoSorryCannot wrote: post #133
chrisseaton wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it’s just a way of raising the price All fees are a way of raising a price.

No, I don't think they are. For example, a credit card processing fee doesn't raise the price of a gallon of gasoline. There is supposed to be a difference between markup and a fee. We don't have to hash out what exactly the difference is, just observe that there is a difference. It's a common grift to hide part of the price in unadvertised "fees" so that consumers will have a harder time comparing options but it is…

Uh, despite the best attempts of credit card companies to hide the fact, their card processing fees do raise the price of gasoline. Before they held as much power over gas retailers, gas stations used to list a cash price and a credit price. The cash price was usually around a nickel cheaper. But now the merchant card agreements prevent having dual pricing (though some businesses try to get away with dual pricing).

Re: Toyota RAV4 Prime hybrid SUV now selling for 48% over MSRP

#149

Post by greedo »

chrisseaton wrote: post #29
gweinberg wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Market conditions explain the higher price, but why does the extra money go to the dealership rather than the manufacturer? I think something other than the market is at work here.

> why does the extra money go to the dealership rather than the manufacturer? Because my understanding is they own the cars, once they're delivered from the manufacturer. They own the asset.

It's because they're collecting rents from having state legislation pretty much guarantee they're the only way to buy a car brand (other than Tesla). And though collusion might be hard to prove, it's pretty obvious to a shopper that the price transparency from the Internet is just as potent a weapon for dealers as it is for shoppers.

Re: Toyota RAV4 Prime hybrid SUV now selling for 48% over MSRP

#150

Post by kcplate »

BobLaw wrote: post #37
chrisseaton wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably it's reasonable because it's supported by market conditions?

Something being "supported by market conditions" is not a valid test for reasonableness. During disasters for example, all manner of unethical practices can be "supported by market conditions". Yet we enact laws against those things for good reason. You also seem to forget the fact that much of those market conditions are a result of anti-competitive and anti-consumer laws guaranteeing their the status a middle men b…

When market conditions dropped the price of gas in 2020 to record levels because demand was so low and supplies were high, I didn’t see people claiming we shouldn’t let gas stations do that because it enticed people to buy gas.
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