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Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

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Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#141

Post by mistermann »

anthk wrote: post #134
mistermann wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet here we are talking about it, again.

So do we with unicorns.

An extremely common association that forms in the mind when a mind is exposed to the idea of religion.

But regardless: do any conclusions derive from your observation?

My point was: it is an interesting phenomenon whereby people who claim that certain things do not exist seem to have a deep interest in discussing them.

Another interesting phenomenon: there are certain ideas that cause the unforced errors in cognition to spike, and religion and spirituality is one of the more potent ones - it can cause people who are otherwise exceptional at logic to suddenly lose access to those abilities. If you ask me, science should be studying this phenomenon with greater vigour due to its (plausible) causal importance.

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#142

Post by mistermann »

burrows wrote: post #138
NateEag wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For many, many people, their sense experience has included some interactions with what they perceive to be the supernatural. If yours hasn't, then obviously that isn't pertinent for you personally, but it seems wise to me to admit that others have their own experience and their own interpretation of those experiences (often not easily falsified). A good example is Philip K. Dick's experience of apparently hallucinati…

> For many, many people, their sense experience has included some interactions with what they perceive to be the supernatural. How can you perceive the supernatural? If you perceive it, then it’s sense data. So photons and sound waves. > A good example is Philip K. Dick's experience of apparently hallucinating a pink beam of light telling him his son needed medical care. He took the kid to the hospital, and found his…

> How can you perceive the supernatural? If you perceive it, then it’s sense data. So photons and sound waves.

You can perceive something, but what you perceive is not necessarily a comprehensive and accurate representation of what may be there.

> Not having a good explanation for how you know something does not imply fairies did it.

True, and the fact that this is true has little bearing on whether the underlying proposition is objectively true (but perhaps beyond humanity's current ability to "know").

inb4 solipsism.

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#143

Post by burrows »

mistermann wrote: post #142
burrows wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For many, many people, their sense experience has included some interactions with what they perceive to be the supernatural. How can you perceive the supernatural? If you perceive it, then it’s sense data. So photons and sound waves. > A good example is Philip K. Dick's experience of apparently hallucinating a pink beam of light telling him his son needed medical care. He took the kid to the hospital, and found his…

> How can you perceive the supernatural? If you perceive it, then it’s sense data. So photons and sound waves. You can perceive something , but what you perceive is not necessarily a comprehensive and accurate representation of what may be there. > Not having a good explanation for how you know something does not imply fairies did it. True, and the fact that this is true has little bearing on whether the underlying p…

> You can perceive something, but what you perceive is not necessarily a comprehensive and accurate representation of what may be there.

I don’t understand what point you are making here. Please clarify.

> True, and the fact that this is true has little bearing on whether the underlying proposition is objectively true

Agreed. But if you offer the explanation “magical pink laser did it”, then I say, “going to set up some lenses and sinks and mirrors to study this phenomena”, then you say, “nope, it’s magical, your dorky science equipment can never contain it”.

Then what?

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#144

Post by mistermann »

burrows wrote: post #143
mistermann wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can you perceive the supernatural? If you perceive it, then it’s sense data. So photons and sound waves. You can perceive something , but what you perceive is not necessarily a comprehensive and accurate representation of what may be there. > Not having a good explanation for how you know something does not imply fairies did it. True, and the fact that this is true has little bearing on whether the underlying p…

> You can perceive something, but what you perceive is not necessarily a comprehensive and accurate representation of what may be there. I don’t understand what point you are making here. Please clarify. > True, and the fact that this is true has little bearing on whether the underlying proposition is objectively true Agreed. But if you offer the explanation “magical pink laser did it”, then I say, “going to set up s…

Consider two examples:

"Water is wet." - it is true that water is wet, but is that all that water "is"? (Non-comprehensive)

"January 6 was a coup attempt." - it is certainly believed by many to be that, and it was an insurrection (according to the technical definition), but whether it was actually a coup attempt in "base reality" is a function of (among other things) the number of people who genuinely intended to commit a coup. (non-accurate)

> Agreed. But if you offer the explanation “magical pink laser did it”, then I say, “going to set up some lenses and sinks and mirrors to study this phenomena”, then you say, “nope, it’s magical, your dorky science equipment can never contain it”. Then what?

Then I would suggest you ask me to present any supporting evidence for my claim because I have a burden of proof, as I am doing to you here for your claim (with implicit claims made explicit - feel free to criticize my translation):

>> "How can you perceive the supernatural? If you perceive it, then it’s [only] sense data. So photons and sound waves [only and necessarily, nothing else is going on]".

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#145

Post by Nomentatus »

nic_wilson wrote: post #95
guiriduro wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How many of us work countless hours for companies whose missions we don’t perhaps even agree with… And there you have Marxist Alienation in a nutshell, and a new thematic thread to read though, if you're interested.

It’s been a over a decade since I read any Marx but I thought alienation of labor was about the worker being alienated from the value of their labor (e.g. I get paid $10/hr to produce widgets that the employers sells for 10x the input costs and I receive none of that value) - I don’t think it was about the emotional connection the laborer had to the (non-economic) value of what was produced.

The greater point is alienation from other people - i.e. that such production destroys communal life, seperating us and preventing previously normal social relations (harking back to nomad days.) Now, this interpretation presumes no massive distinction between "early Marx" and "late Marx," but academics now reject a brief French-birthed academic fad decades ago that imagined two Marx's, early and late, with different views.

Whether it's easy to get back to that communal (community/communist) life of the very old days "after the revolution" is a whole 'nother question, of course. The history of self-identified communist societies suggests that it's no cakewalk.

So yes, exploitation is a huge part of the problem, but ending that is a means to an end, to community and a more human life. Marx seemed to want to restrict production (to prevent "overproduction" (recessions) not to keep going towards more and more material wealth.

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#146

Post by burrows »

phs318u wrote: post #140
burrows wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But don’t I benefit most by covertly defecting (crypto-assholing) in a well functioning society? Then I get the standard benefits of the society and some stolen ones.

Maybe, maybe not. Are there victimless crimes? A lot of people may think insurance fraud is such a thing but clearly that's a narrow view of "victimless". I do think you're right at some level or else being an asshole wouldn't have any survival advantage and would perhaps not have survived as a trait (assuming some heritable basis for being an asshole). But then how do you explain people who seemingly derive joy from…

What is the downside to you for being an asshole? Especially if no one is aware of it besides you?

Re: Alain de Botton on existential maturity and what emotional intelligence means

#147

Post by laszlojamf »

kstenerud wrote: post #76
laszlojamf wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An old man once told me that an educated person can suffer shortages but will never be poor. He meant educated in the broadest sense of the word, including what de Botton is talking about. I don't mean to take your suffering away from you, but just to point out that focusing on material things even in the near term is a choice. It doesn't cost anything to build relationships and invest in your mental health. It doesn…

And here's an old man telling you that you absolutely CAN be poor. Poverty is a trap that's very difficult to escape because it saps all of your mental energy [1]. The mental exhaustion just from dealing with the day-to-day on the edge completely stunts your mental and emotional growth and severely limits your ability to respond to opportunities, which makes it even harder to escape. While the rich are learning how t…

I'm not saying it's nice to be poor, I'm saying it's a matter of perspective. I've met plenty of "poor" people, especially in developing countries who have been way happier (self reported and viewed through my white privilege perspective obviously) than most of my middle class friends. It's not a matter of blaming anybody, but rather an honest attempt to help. Bitterness feeds on itself.

Also, the article is interesting because the underlying assumption here is that long term planning is a good thing. Meanwhile everybody who isn't poor is constantly talking about being more present and living in the "now". Again, I'm not defending this system or proposing any other system, but I'm trying to give another perspective on the issue.

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