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On leaving Mapbox after 12 years

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Re: On leaving Mapbox after 12 years

#141

Post by devmunchies »

Apocryphon wrote: post #135
devmunchies wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

from the article: > A company like Mapbox hadn’t ever unionized before, so it seemed like an exciting experiment Regardless of one's views on unionization, in this scenario as an underdog competing with 2 multi-trillion dollar companies in the space (Apple and Google), this "exiting experiment" reasoning seems especially reckless, irresponsible, and naive. IMO, at such a small company like mapbox, it's akin to mutiny…

Oh no, mutiny in tech? Not as if that hasn't been a good move before (e.g. the Traitorous Eight, or the ousting of Jobs).

> Traitorous Eight

employees who left and started a competitor? how is that mutiny?

> ousting of Jobs

technically, the board had the voting power, and he wasn't even CEO. Generals removing a lieutenant isn't mutiny. If anything, he was planning a coup (mutiny) himself.

Re: On leaving Mapbox after 12 years

#142

Post by Apocryphon »

devmunchies wrote: post #141
Apocryphon wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh no, mutiny in tech? Not as if that hasn't been a good move before (e.g. the Traitorous Eight, or the ousting of Jobs).

> Traitorous Eight employees who left and started a competitor? how is that mutiny? > ousting of Jobs technically, the board had the voting power, and he wasn't even CEO. Generals removing a lieutenant isn't mutiny. If anything, he was planning a coup (mutiny) himself.

Desertion isn't mutiny now? Acquiring Jobs' splinter cell, and making him a general, isn't rewarding his attempted mutiny?

Re: On leaving Mapbox after 12 years

#143

Post by anamexis »

erlich wrote: post #115

This is such a crazy and enraging read. If you don’t like your job, go join another company. It’s not as if devs don’t have plenty of high paying choices out there. Especially for a startup that had struggled to find market fit, the last thing they need is a union. Companies are not democracies and setting up a union is a hostile action. It basically says: here are the things we want and if we don’t get them we all s…

I am curious what you find enraging about this article.

He clearly didn't want to go join another company – he joined Mapbox because he shared its early vision, and thought that original vision was worth fighting for.

Re: On leaving Mapbox after 12 years

#144

Post by erlich »

slively wrote: post #23
xyzzy4747 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone can make their own company and their own shares and it’s practically free other than registration costs. The people with the shares get to set all the rules. That’s generally how it works. Otherwise the shares would be worthless.

You are sidestepping a massive amount of factors that allows somebody to create their own business. Even then, a company grows on the backs of its employees, and there quickly comes a time when a single person should not have complete control because it’s not just theirs anymore. I own shares in public companies and have basically zero say in how they operate and those shares are worth quite a bit. At this point it’s…

Money is paid for the employees backs and the business entity owns all the IP. Employees agree to this and can leave at any moment. They are welcome to start a co-op style company and give that a go. But would a VC want to invest in such a company? Prob not.

People like to pretend we don’t live in a cut throat capitalist system and that it has worked out best.

Re: On leaving Mapbox after 12 years

#145

Post by Apocryphon »

jjmorrison wrote: post #106

Thinking that organizing a union to change the direction of the company is an exciting experiment is really irresponsible. All the paycheck everyone at the company is getting needs to come from somewhere. You do not have the right to bet everyone's paycheck on an exciting experiment.

What happened to disruption, innovation, experimentation in this industry? What happened to move fast and break things?

Re: On leaving Mapbox after 12 years

#146

Post by fomine3 »

astrange wrote: post #119
siraben wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Japan, everyone’s favorite high public transit country with a lot of demand for maps, has a higher car ownership % than the US. They just discourage using them for personal trips and commutes via small roads, toll highways, expensive parking etc. Do you have a reference for this? From a precursory search it seems the US has a much higher car ownership rate.

Looks like I remembered it wrong. Still, it’s quite high and more than Australia/Canada. https://internationalcomparisons.org/environmental/transport... (2015) The UK having the highest transit mode share (in 2014) is a bit surprising.

Another source: > 6-2 Number of motor vehicles owned in Japan and other countries (2017) https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jrctptpe/2020/0/2020_63...

I think there are more business vehicles in Japan. There are too much sales people. Goods transport is mainly done by vehicles.

Re: On leaving Mapbox after 12 years

#147

Post by erlich »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #29
xyzzy4747 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone who is willing can create a business, especially a software one that has no upfront costs, and the owner usually does most of the work to get it off the ground. The owner gets complete say in how it’s run until they choose to relinquish or sell control or structure it otherwise.

A company is a group effort and people can quit whenever they want. The owner doesn't have complete say and shouldn't have complete say, and it's good for employees to talk to each other so that they can use their say together.

People can quit whenever they want which is the main point.

Instead of banding together and threatening the management and owners with strike action it’s better that they quit because maybe there are other people who are happy to do the work without a union.

I think the problem is most people don’t imagine themselves as owners/managers. If they did they would oppose unions too because they would not want their autonomy taken away.

Re: On leaving Mapbox after 12 years

#148

Post by cyphar »

billyhoffman wrote: post #137
Apocryphon wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if you believe companies should not be democracies, and should be autocracies, what if there's incompetent autocrats at the top who are objectively hurting the company? Should the average employee rollover and pray that the board raises a fuss? What if management holds the majority shares? It is completely baffling that people who otherwise decry the government as a pack of dictatorial bureaucrats turn a blind e…

It’s really easy to leave a company If you become disheartened or don’t agree with their direction. It’s virtually impossible to leave your country.

Sure, it's easy unless:

* You are dependent on your employer for your work visa; * You are dependent on your employer for your health insurance (US-specific problem); * You have don't have much experience in industry and thus will not easily be able to find a similar job; * You don't have enough savings to be able to be unemployed for a period of time while you find another job (doubly so if you have dependents or you have a non-compete agreement which would make you unemployable for a significant amount of time); * You have a criminal record that makes hiring far more difficult; or * There are few competitors in the space where you have expertise (or the few competitors you do have wouldn't hire you for one reason or another).

There is a very large number of people which would fall under at least one of the above points.

Re: On leaving Mapbox after 12 years

#149

Post by fomine3 »

thematrixturtle wrote: post #136
astrange wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main issue is people want to copy Japan by building high speed rail, but Shinkansen isn’t actually that useful - it doesn’t carry mail/cargo, can’t carry much luggage, and though pleasant to use it’s quite expensive. It’s closer to business class flights than anything else. Economy class flights inside the country are often actually cheaper if you don’t mind going to the airport. Japan’s strength is that you can…

Well, yes? Shinkansen is intercity transport and that's exactly why it's priced to compete with airlines.

Shinkansen is comfortable than airline, no annoying inspection, almost no wait, and utilization is high enough. So technically it should be priced higher than airline, but I also feel it's weird that high CO2 emission airline is cheaper than lower emission train.

Re: On leaving Mapbox after 12 years

#150

Post by Apocryphon »

erlich wrote: post #147
Dylan16807 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A company is a group effort and people can quit whenever they want. The owner doesn't have complete say and shouldn't have complete say, and it's good for employees to talk to each other so that they can use their say together.

People can quit whenever they want which is the main point. Instead of banding together and threatening the management and owners with strike action it’s better that they quit because maybe there are other people who are happy to do the work without a union. I think the problem is most people don’t imagine themselves as owners/managers. If they did they would oppose unions too because they would not want their autono…

And who's to say that the current management isn't doing a poor job? Based on Glassdoor and Blind, they've been experiencing high turnover and mixed reviews at best. So why shouldn't the management and owners be held accountable for questionable decisions? Why are you so insistent that workers get no say, and can only leave? On what basis is blind obedience mandatory in the workplace?
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