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Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

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Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#141

Post by busterarm »

pessimizer wrote: post #109
busterarm wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Corporations bargain collectively by default; Only with unskilled labor. My profession is skilled and the skillset is in demand and hard to find. I bargain for myself, thanks. I have repeatedly and at length discussed on HN about my 3 separate union membership experiences and how I will never again repeat them.

The no-poach cartel that ruled big tech for like a decade would like to have a word.

If your skillset is sufficiently rare and in-demand than Google/Facebook/Apple aren't your only options for high-paying employment.

Heck, I haven't even worked for any of those yet and last I checked at least 2 of them were offering less than what I make for my role.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#142

Post by [deleted] »

adam_arthur wrote: post #103
bestcoder69 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Distorted wages for labor is not good for broader society Real life on planet earth disagrees pretty hard with you. Google "___est countries". Pick a metric that shows policy impacts. Say, health, happiness, etc. The kind of metrics that aren't abstract BS and can't be cherry-picked. Pick the first, say, five. Then look up their unionization rates. I'll spoil it for you. Nordic countries win (it doesn't even matter…

It's a good thing Europe can mooch off US innovation and Chinese manufacturing. Manufacturing that is not unionized, by the way. If the US went the way of Europe, technological innovation would slow dramatically, which I'll argue is a bad outcome for the world in the long run. What do you think the cost of basic goods would rise to if all the Chinese manufacturing centers unionized?

[deleted]

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#143

Post by adam_arthur »

pessimizer wrote: post #109
busterarm wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Corporations bargain collectively by default; Only with unskilled labor. My profession is skilled and the skillset is in demand and hard to find. I bargain for myself, thanks. I have repeatedly and at length discussed on HN about my 3 separate union membership experiences and how I will never again repeat them.

The no-poach cartel that ruled big tech for like a decade would like to have a word.

That's an oligopoly/cartel, which represents monopoly power on labor demand, and is illegal

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#144

Post by lokar »

pastor_bob wrote: post #46
FrancoisBosun wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Canada, it is not. If you don’t join the union, you may still benefit from the union’s bargaining power so you will pay some dues to the union. I would presume this varies per region.

It depends. In many industries it's a requirement of the bargaining agreement. But many states have passed 'right to work' laws which state you can't be forced. And still, I know of positions where there are 'union' and 'non-union' people basically doing the same job at companies. Non-union usually comes with a pay bump to offset not having the union benefits.

When I helped run a union we had to carefully track paid time and expenses. Only time spent negotiating and enforcing the contract could be collected from non members.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#145

Post by noSyncCloud »

busterarm wrote: post #80
TulliusCicero wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Competition applies to labor too, by the way Yes, which is why unions are great. Corporations bargain collectively by default; each is a large unit, with a lot of resources, composed of many people. Unions allow individuals to bargain collectively, to match corporations in terms of leverage, because few individuals are valuable enough to even come close.

> Corporations bargain collectively by default; Only with unskilled labor. My profession is skilled and the skillset is in demand and hard to find. I bargain for myself, thanks. I have repeatedly and at length discussed on HN about my 3 separate union membership experiences and how I will never again repeat them.

> I bargain for myself, thanks.

Well, that's good to know. I guess the rest of the world can stop worrying about themselves since you're taken care of.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#146

Post by pessimizer »

djbebs wrote: post #104
toomuchtodo wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or course not. You can work somewhere else if you don’t want collective representation. Can’t have your cake and eat it too, getting benefits of a union without joining it is freeloading.

The union isn't my employer, why would I need their permission to work?

Because your employer wants the union to be happy. You also need the customer's permission to work; because if customers ask your employer to fire you, your employer will think that it's a good idea to fire you. edit: TBH, you need my permission to work, too, if I know enough of the customers or have enough followers on my twitter account.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#147

Post by throwaway_95283 »

kieselguhr_kid wrote: post #121
throwaway_95283 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just move the office to a low tax country / state. Union people will refuse to move there.

Who wouldn't want to move from a vibrant coastal city to a suburb in Arkansas?

Given that SF is losing people and Boise is gaining them, apparently many people want to make that move.

I guess some people think human excrement on the street isn't very "vibrant", they're probably racists or something for not liking it I'm sure.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#148

Post by kieselguhr_kid »

busterarm wrote: post #119
kieselguhr_kid wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A recently unionized workplace can get hostile to workers who opposed it. This is fine by me: if you opposed the majority of your coworkers in their struggle for better material working conditions, then you should feel their resentment.

Actually most people were union-supportive but thought it either wasn't the right time or would negatively impact the company in the long-run. Only a small minority (maybe 15%) of the company were activist and the rest were "union? okay cool!". There were some really dirty tactics used by the activist camps (on both sides) and even some press written about such at the time. Things like demanding that management accep…

Only 15% being activist is usually the case. Most people just participate in conversations and voting.

Internal polling is always skewed, which is why you have the NLRB process. Negative articles in the press about working conditions and demanding that the management accept the union without going through a vote are both normal. Pretending they're "dirty" is kind of weird.

And if the people left, that's fine. I instigated and ran an organizing committee and left the shop after we won. It's a draining struggle, and one that wouldn't have been successful if things weren't already fucked up for a lot of people at Kickstarter. Ultimately, the success of a union campaign shows that people don't think informal channels will get them what they need at their jobs, and they're willing to commit to long-term conflict in order to make it happen. They wouldn't do that over mild dissatisfaction.

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#149

Post by native_samples »

gnicholas wrote: post #67
busterarm wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also a large chunk of the employees who didn't want to unionize (25-35% of their peak headcount) left the company over some of the tactics employed in the contested fight over unionizing the company.

Can you link to details about this?

It's worth remembering that the event that, uh, kickstarted their drive for unionization was the site's management banning a project that was raising money to support violence against conservatives (the actual physical kind, not words). The details are a bit fuzzy now but iirc some of the hard-left employees didn't like the ToS being enforced in that case, because whilst they accepted the project was calling for violence they felt that encouraging people to "punch Nazis" should explicitly be allowed. They felt that strongly enough that they unionized to force management to acquiesce.

So this isn't a classical union that's requesting more money for the workers or anything. It's the new sort of union which tries to force companies to take sides in the culture war.

It's thus not a surprise that a significant proportion of workers wouldn't want to be a part of that, and well, the sort of people who were unionizing the firm were doing so explicitly to support physical violence. US unions have a long history of violence already.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/10/10/how-debat...

Re: Kickstarter Union voted 97.6% to ratify one of the first tech union contracts

#150

Post by adam_arthur »

bjornsing wrote: post #129
adam_arthur wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't divide it between skilled and unskilled. It's more a product of supply and demand. Unskilled labor can have decent bargaining power if there's a shortage of unskilled labor. It just so happens that there tends to more frequently be shortages of skilled labor

> Unskilled labor can have decent bargaining power if there's a shortage of unskilled labor. Not really, because that’s the definition of unskilled: it takes no special skills to do the job. So if there’s a shortage and wages go up dramatically then skilled labor can take its place. (The opposite is not possible/ advisable though.)

Being willing to do the job is a hurdle on its own. And there is variance between employee quality for "unskilled" labor too.

E.g. think about customer facing roles and social skills/aptitude. Having all friendly/nice employees can drive greater revenue for a business. Chick fil a and costco are famous for hiring friendly employees, can have meaningful results for the business

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