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Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

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Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#141

Post by spinchange »

div wrote: post #2

I don't really understand what the author is trying to say. Granted, it's been a while since I used Ubuntu, but as a developer I mainly live in my editor and terminal. Anything I ever wanted is just an apt-get away and is mostly installed in a sensible way. Ubuntu simplifying desktop features and changing defaults to be easier for users like my mom sounds like a great thing to happen to Linux. That stuff is mostly or…

I think the fact that you haven't used it lately explains why you don't understand what the author is trying to say. There are plenty of "mom-level" user frustrations with this release too. (my young kids, who just play games, hate it)

I would sum up the article as such: Ubuntu needs to focus on being the best Ubuntu it can be for its users. If Ubuntu tries to be Apple (imposing arbitrary UI choices and tastes on them, with little to no recourse) it will neither be good at that or what they were good at to begin with.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#142

Post by morsch »

cpeterso wrote: post #83
Zak wrote: post #26

Ubuntu used to be Debian that just worked. Now it's trying to be something more, but it seems to have lost the "just works" part. When I tried 11.10, I had problems with several of the desktop environments crashing or being very visibly broken. I had poor graphics performance. I had no suspend/resume. All of these things worked on the same computer a year ago. I think Ubuntu may be trying to move too fast. Moving fas…

Besides Unity, what does Ubuntu currently offer that Debian's testing or unstable releases don't? I'm also surprised that people are using Ubuntu on servers.

Launchpad PPAs? Not sure if there's any way to make them work with Debian. Maybe all of those updated software versions are in Debian unstable, but I doubt it, which leaves downloading tarballs, yuck.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#143

Post by morsch »

Kell wrote: post #17
sofuture wrote: post #5

I think Ubuntu should zag where Apple zags. I think they're doing it right. They're in a unique position to take an Apple-like path. I, for one, applaud what they're doing, as much as it terrifies all the half-power-users (I don't mean that as a slight, I do think it's a little silly to get upset about Ubuntu's default WM and claim to 'understand UNIX').

If by "I don't mean that as a slight, I do think it's a little silly to get upset about Ubuntu's default WM and claim to 'understand UNIX'" you mean it's possible for a hacker to change back from Unity to another interface. I must concur... but dissent on the fact that doing so is easy for a regular geek. It's not. It may be easy to the people that do ""understand Unix"". But for myself, I found that it was easier sa…

Huh? You don't need the terminal. You can chose the environment in the login screen, there's a drop down menu besides your name. Not exactly intuitive, but very easy to find out using Google or a forum. If you want Gnome 3, you can install it from the repositories (again, no terminal required, at least not in 11.10), and it'll be there in the drop down menu.

Zero understanding of *nix required here.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#144

Post by slowpoke »

gnaritas wrote: post #14
gue5t wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ubuntu fails to showcase many of the best aspects of Linux as a system. Linux (and other open-source OSes, obviously) is an environment in which users are able to exercise more freedom in their usage of their computers than virtually anywhere else. Instead of an environment in which "users" are at the mercy of "developers", the instruction manual is included. Anyone can change their computer's behavior to the extent…

> Linux (and other open-source OSes, obviously) is an environment in which users are able to exercise more freedom in their usage of their computers than virtually anywhere else. While this is true, it's simply not a feature the average user wants at all. They just want it to be simple, and work. > To suggest that users should use a static system or merely accept their updates in 6-month-increments is like suggesting…

>They just want it to be simple, and work.

And yet, this isn't orthogonal to still keeping it extensible, transparent and open for learning. Yes, most users might not want or need this. But there might be some who get drawn into it. Never block anyone from learning.

>Most users aren't carpenters, they have no interest in crafting their own tools, they just want a decent looking coffee table that doesn't require them to hand build it.

You misunderstood the analogy, I think. Everyone is a carpenter in some way. The OS isn't the table, it's the tool.

>They aren't equals, have you met most users?

Yet again, you misunderstood. "Equals" means to stop treating users like they are generally unable (and unwilling) to learn. Worse, Ubuntu/Unity (actively or passively) hinders people who are willing to learn.

I'm not saying you should force people to learn. I'm saying you should give them sane defaults, and the option to learn how to change them if they chose to do so (and ideally, with an easy and obvious way to restore the defaults).

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#145

Post by TiberiusJones »

The amount of "Power users shouldn't use Ubuntu" comments on here are fairly indicative of why those outside the power user/dev community view us the way they do. It's just elitist whining at the end of the day. Who the hell are "we" to decide what people should and shouldn't use based on their ability? It's just this sort of thing that turns the lay person away from wanting to know more.

Fact of the matter is, if you don't like Unity don't bloody use it. I've never found a single thing I couldn't do in Ubuntu that would force me over to another distro. I mean sure, we could all build our own Gentoo installs from the ground up but who the hell has that sort of time on their hands?

To indicate that Ubuntu is inherently a newbie only system because of eye candy smacks of both arrogance and a complete lack of understanding. It's like calling a mansion a shack because you don't like the colour of the window frames.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#146

Post by Jeema3000 »

cookiecaper wrote: post #88
Zak wrote: post #26

Ubuntu used to be Debian that just worked. Now it's trying to be something more, but it seems to have lost the "just works" part. When I tried 11.10, I had problems with several of the desktop environments crashing or being very visibly broken. I had poor graphics performance. I had no suspend/resume. All of these things worked on the same computer a year ago. I think Ubuntu may be trying to move too fast. Moving fas…

The problem is that Ubuntu is not focusing on the fundamentals and they're not putting enough money into testing. I know well and good that Ubuntu was conceived because Shuttleworth felt that Linux was ready for the big time and that Red Hat etc had too much penchant to devote resources into low-level bickering that ultimately had relatively little effect on your average end user instead of focusing on improving user…

"Far too often things break between releases and/or upgrades."

I recently tried to upgrade my older 9.10 install to 10.4 LTS. I got a bunch of errors about x.org upon upgrade (I think maybe because I downloaded and installed Nvidia's Linux driver a while ago), and yep you guessed it - hosed system upon reboot.

These sort of showstopper problems should not be occurring - not in the year 2011. Totally inexcusable as far as I'm concerned.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#147

Post by halostatue »

jsz0 wrote: post #125
statictype wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you have some religious zeal to use OSS software there is no good reason to even consider Ubuntu over Windows or OSX. Problem with making sweeping statements like this is that you now make it difficult to continue any sort of rational discussion. (and so, I downvoted you for that last line even though you had some good points to make)

I usually avoid sweeping statements for exactly that reason but I think it's true in this case. If anyone has a good counter argument I'd be happy to admit I am wrong. Just to give you some idea where I am coming from I used Ubuntu on my work laptop for about 5 years. I got a new machine recently with Windows 7 and I just couldn't think of any good reason to install Ubuntu.

I can think of a few good reasons, but hey are purely developer-oriented. At my last job, I had an Ubuntu-based desktop because it made virtualization cleaner with a more stable base system—and the company wouldn't buy Macs. Windows ran in a virtual machine, and I developed on Linux, Windows, and a couple of Unixes. For that job, Ubuntu was the best choice I made.

Now? I'm happily running on a Mac.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#148

Post by lsc »

skystorm wrote: post #103
lsc wrote: post #89

eh, personally, I also hate unity. I am a linux SysAdmin, so if I want to go muck around in the internals or install and configure my own window manager, sure, I can. But that's not why I use ubuntu on the desktop. I use ubuntu on the desktop because it just works. If I want to tinker with Linux, I can do it on a server and get paid for it. With older versions of ubuntu? heck, getting drivers is usually easier than w…

I was in the same boat and ended up switching to Xubuntu -- and I don't regret it for one second. I get all the good stuff ("just works") with a sleek, customizable UI, that also happens to be very frugal wrt. system resources. It's a win-win really. :)

I used xubuntu some time ago when I was on an underpowered netbook, and it was pretty okay. I'll try it again; thanks for the tip.

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#149

Post by Xixi »

magnethy wrote: post #116

I haven't used Linux as a primary desktop OS for almost 7 years, so I figured I'd give it a go - so I got a ThinkPad W520 running Ubuntu 11.10 for work (software development.) Verdict so far? Next time I'm going for a Mac again. Why? * X doesn't automatically set up my nvidia graphics card. Sure, I can manually install the driver and set up Xorg.conf, but I just don't want to do that. Luckily there's also an integrat…

MacPorts is a pretty good packaging system, though as its name imply more like ports than aptitude. Since it's hosted on Mac OS Forge, you could say it's the "official" Apple packaging system.

As far as I am concerned it fits the bill, I rarely encounter anything broken (except during the Leopard / Snow Leopard transition that was quite a nightmare).

That said having to compile everything sometimes is annoying...

Re: Ubuntu should zig to Apple’s zag

#150

Post by technomancy »

hetman wrote: post #114
technomancy wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That might be a good point if it weren't already so simple to build user interfaces that are simultaneously obvious to newbies while at the same time being ridiculously extensible. You just build it in a language that exposes a repl. Mozilla doesn't even do a particularly good job at this (given how they bury the replness), and it's still fostered a plugin ecosystem that has kept it competitive despite competitors ea…

It's Linux. You should build one. It's "easy" after all...

Obviously it's implied that the repl be implemented in the same language as the rest of the codebase. So adding one to a project written in C++ would be a waste of time.
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