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Science needs more research software engineers

nature.com

141–150 of 366 posts

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#141
I'm an RSE and the president of the Society of Research Software Engineering (https://society-rse.org), a small grass-roots registered charity in the UK that acts as a home for RSEs in the UK and internationally. We came about from the organisers of the RSE conference (https://rsecon2022.society-rse.org) and from the early pioneers in the naming and recognition of RSEs.

The other comments in this thread indeed point out the issue of poor salary compared with industry, this is a problem that I feel will persist. Historically, the benefit of working at a University over a company has been greater freedom, better benefits and (at least for me) the knowledge that you;re working for the public benefit. Unfortunately, the benefits are being reduced as time goes on as Universities are under greater financial stress.

My role as an RSE at the University of Bristol has been in a primarily teaching position for the last few years, where I have been training PhD students, postdocs and research staff (all the way up to and including professors) in both the basics of programming but also testing, version control, profiling etc. My role is funded indirectly by the government as it is recognised by the funding agencies that RSE skills are essential for modern research and they are putting their money where their mouth is by funding more software projects, fellowships and training programmes in this area.

If you think that you'd like to know more about getting involved as an as RSE, or if you work as one an would like to meet like-minded people then you can join as a member of the Society, join our Slack channel or our mailing list (https://society-rse.org/join-us/) or find out how you can get involved (https://society-rse.org/community/get-involved/).

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#142

Where do you find these jobs? And are they only available at Universities? I'd be happy to take the pay cut to work on something that contributes more to society than getting people to click on ads, but not at a college or university.

We (the Society of Research Software Engineering) maintain a jobs board at https://society-rse.org/careers/vacancies/. Or if you are in the US, they have their own (https://us-rse.org/jobs/)

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#143
As someone that works as one. I would recommend NOT being a research software engineer if you value your health and haven't obtained financial freedom. Cost of living is always increasing and the lower pay isn't worth it. The work is more stressful as well because proper software development isn't respected. Previously worked at FANG.

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#144

Well, then science needs to do more to create an environment where software engineers would want to be an RSE. From my experience "science" does not appreciate RSEs, the compensation is bad, the freedom is bad, and you get all of the big company bureaucracy from the University. It's just a bad environment and to top it off, even if you have a PhD many will see you as "less than."

The last point is important. In my experience it's mostly about status. RSEs are always seen as inferior to researchers (research scientists) who supposedly come up with the "big ideas" while RSEs merely implement the stuff they're told to do. In reality the line is much blurrier. There can be no innovation and iteration without implementation of ideas and the RSE work is just as important. But unless this view chang…

I'd argue the position of software engineers/ programmers being those that implement the thinking of the business/science thinkers isn't unique to academia.

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#145

This looks great, and I would have loved to see this when I was in the lab. When the software industry says to you: "We will nearly triple your salary, you don't have to work weekends, and you also don't have to feed the mice on a Sunday night." You will 100% take this deal. I was a 10yr+ academic tool maker in biochemistry, built cutting edge microscopes, hardware, and image analysis software. My lab was successful…

This.

I have worked for almost 15 years in academic research, but in very close collaboration with the steel industry. The code we write can help steel companies to save millions when developing new products. This is quite complex software, which combines materials science, mechanical engineering and advanced mathematical concepts while requiring high performance and reliability.

I found a nice position for a tenure track in France, in a top research centre. Besides designing and writing software, I would have to design and implement experimental plans, teach, deal with students and administration, keep an excellent publications record, and find funding for future projects. Remote work would not be a possibility (but I would work may unpaid extra hours at home). And the amount of published papers and recommendation letters required just to be considered for the job was overwhelming. My salary would be lower than $30k/year. They do not even know what is a RSE.

I am searching a remote job in the software industry now.

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#146
I think it's also worth clarifying that there are more than one style of RSE. The name came about to describe those researchers/postdocs working in research groups whose contribution was more to the software than to the writing of research papers. For them, the incentive structure wasn't there as they were being measured on papers written, not "research improved". By giving them the name RSE, it recognises that they are playing a different role in the group and perhaps need different metrics. At this time, they are still in research groups, experts in their field, having likely done a PhD in the particular domain. These are still RSEs and there are lots of them around (probably more than there are in central groups).

The recent trend is for universities to provide central RSE groups (either by core-funding or being costed onto grants in parts) which operate more like consultants. This allows a route in for people who do not have a PhD or a background in a particular field, and can support many smaller projects across the university.

For example at Bristol, we have a combination. We have a lose federation of "embedded" RSEs and some "RSE group" RSEs (funded through various grants) who work together to learn from each other, teach around the uni and provide a support network. This group was able to be formed due to a fellowship from the government back in 2015 (the same fellowship that allowed Paul to start his group at Sheffield).

It's important to remember that anyone who is doing "research software engineering" is an RSE, even if it's not their job title.

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#147

This looks great, and I would have loved to see this when I was in the lab. When the software industry says to you: "We will nearly triple your salary, you don't have to work weekends, and you also don't have to feed the mice on a Sunday night." You will 100% take this deal. I was a 10yr+ academic tool maker in biochemistry, built cutting edge microscopes, hardware, and image analysis software. My lab was successful…

As usual, xkcd is relevant: https://xkcd.com/664/

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#148

Well, then science needs to do more to create an environment where software engineers would want to be an RSE. From my experience "science" does not appreciate RSEs, the compensation is bad, the freedom is bad, and you get all of the big company bureaucracy from the University. It's just a bad environment and to top it off, even if you have a PhD many will see you as "less than."

While the academia has a lot of issues, software engineers should also adjust their expectations. First, if you choose to work for a non-profit, you should expect a huge pay cut. That's the way the society works. Or actually it's the opposite. If you work in a for-profit role, the society allows your employer to keep most of the value you create. If you create a lot of value, that gives you the leverage to negotiate…

My apologies for not being familiar with acronyms, but what is a PI?

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#149
The issue with money is down to the university overheads.

An RSE is paid like a standard researcher (with none of the benefits, recognition etc as detailed in other comments), which means that the university will take, minimum 50% of the grant money for that person.

This is for building work, maintenance, general staff, etc etc. But I need a laptop, and I work from home, most of the time the IT staff just get in my way and slow my computer down with the crap they install.

If the universities didn't take that cut, we could easily pay the RSEs more. There's no job security, very little recognition, but every single subject requires good code these days.

The real issue here is that without decent coders our science will fall behind. Any idiot can write bad code, and smart people can write exceptionally bad code, we've all been there, not writing simple readable code because it made us feel clever, till we had to read it a year later. Academics are smart people who believe they can teach themselves to code, and they can, but it's generally not good software.

There are also the ancillary benefits of just having someone around who can do things like rename your hundreds of files by writing a script in 5 minutes rather than you taking two days to do it (this actually happened).

For the sake of western science this should be addressed.

Re: Science needs more research software engineers

#150
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently quit a job as a software engineer on a research project for all the reasons mentioned. They want grunts who don't care about project management or good engineering practices and they will belittle you as not worth the money even when you took a (theoretical, as I am overemployed) massive paycut to go and work for them. I made 1/3 there compared to the jobs I am interviewing for to replace it. These people…

Yea, it's frustrating because there are indeed some super cool projects just waiting to have interesting software written for them, especially in the more hardware/physical oriented R&D areas. There are some areas that take software seriously, but in general, I have found it really difficult to get scientists and research engineers excited about anything that they don't know about. I don't think its malice. I think i…

It's very interesting that you say you find it difficult to get scientists excited about anything, because I am told pretty much the opposite. To give you the perspective, I'm a scientist and my partner is a GP. I obviously have many friends who also work in science and one thing that my partner noticed quite early after we met is that the scientist friends (and myself) would ask a lot of questions when she was talking about her work, and really tried to understand reasons, mechanisms etc.. She noted that this was very different to almost everyone else.

I can definitely tell you that if I talk about my work non-scientists become quickly uninterested.

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