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Original Pong did not have any code or even a microprocessor

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Re: Original Pong did not have any code or even a microprocessor

#141

Post by drewzero1 »

calvinmorrison wrote: post #131
drewzero1 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've played around with it a bit in the past for Arduino stuff, and it could be promising for this application. Do you get to pick the colors of each wire? (Bonus: are striped wires supported?) Ideally you'd be able to mark each wire with an indication of color(s) and diameter so the diagram could be printed in black and white (example[0]). I assume that could be done with labels, but on the scale of a vehicle that c…

Drew, why do you have a fuel diagram of a Saab 900? are you another saab guy? The wiring diagram I am working on is actually for my 900, for which the original fans are bulks, tend to break, and are a NLA. I've exhausted my spares and so now I am going a different route. But yes, these are exactly the diagrams I am talking about. Having a computerized version of this would be awesome, actual colors, inlining some inf…

Coincidentally, yes! I had to use that diagram to troubleshoot a no-fuel issue on my '83 900 last year. (Bad pump.) Now I'm learning all about fuel leaks and brake calipers and putting too many miles on (and paying too much attention to) my emergency backup Saturn.

What year is your 900? I haven't heard of this fan issue yet, but there are a lot of really specific SAAB things that I'm sure I'll encounter if I can keep this car going long enough.

What I'd really like would be to select a wire and have it highlight the wire and every connection; that'd make continuity tests a lot easier to confirm. I'm sure places like Haynes have some great software in-house they can use to make their diagrams.

Re: Original Pong did not have any code or even a microprocessor

#142

Post by drewzero1 »

Ccecil wrote: post #93
calvinmorrison wrote: post #26

Life is weird, I was just using this site yesterday to do some electrical diagrams for a wiring harness I am building for my ancient mobile. My trouble was understanding how to flow something through a series of relays, and implementing "AND" and "OR" logic with a relay series. if(AC && Temp > 160) { run both fans } if(AC || Temp > 160 { run both fans at reduced speed } Now, the AC is already a relay, but you can jus…

https://github.com/formatc1702/WireViz Haven't used it personally...but it looks nice.

Ooh, that does look promising. I might have to try this to document some custom cables at work. Thanks for the tip!

Re: Original Pong did not have any code or even a microprocessor

#143

Post by [deleted] »

lb1lf wrote: post #116
orlp wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no sane way to build voting machines. Voting isn't a technology problem, it's a social/trust problem.

-That depends on how you use them; this is a people problem, not a tech problem, as you (IMHO) correctly observe. If you use the voting machines to keep a running tally of votes cast so results are available immediately after polls close, you have already gotten a large benefit from them. However, to ensure the (most warranted!) concern of the electorate that the votes are not being tampered with, the machine should…

[deleted]

Re: Original Pong did not have any code or even a microprocessor

#144

Post by simne »

leetbulb wrote: post #140
simne wrote: post #132

It may surprise, but ALL Cray-1 machines, does not have MICROprocessors at all - just digital logic low scale integration. And nearly all "Big" computers before era of mini-computers, also does not have MICROprocessors, their CPU consists of whole board of chips or even more than one board. Imagine, one of the first commercial computers with MICROprocessor chip, was microVAX II, appears nearly decade later than 8086.

A CPU, whether its implementation is a microprocessor or a board of chips, is very different from a game implemented only using discrete components. It is crazy though to imagine supercomputers implemented without microchips, not to mention vacuum tubes, hell, wood and brass.

This is just matter of correct naming.

- MICROprocessor, ideally is a one semiconductor die, which integrates all cpu parts.

Unfortunately, now silicon approaching limits, so to make things cost effective, have to do compromises, use chiplets, imposers, but this is very far from universal components on board.

Re: Original Pong did not have any code or even a microprocessor

#145

Post by fennecfoxy »

nonrandomstring wrote: post #102
ajp11 wrote: post #19

In the year 1974, Practical Wireless, a UK magazine, published a design for a pong game that connects to a television, called PW Tele Tennis. It uses sixty four NAND gates, twelve NE555 timers, two dozen diodes and some analog parts. It's about the most basic version of the game. They later published a sound effects board and an on-screen scoring board that uses a couple of dozen more chips. http://searle.x10host.com…

The implications of Karnaugh maps and state machine reduction, which we did in "Digital Logic" when I was a student, were that you could take any problem, express it as a set of states and transforms, and boil that down to an optimal netlist of discrete logic gates. Of course, in the mid 80's that was a pedagogical tool to lead us toward register machines and von Neumann architectures, but there were still some old-s…

Ya let's start programming exclusively in asm again as well \s

Re: Original Pong did not have any code or even a microprocessor

#146

Post by ncmncm »

mjgerm wrote: post #111
nonrandomstring wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> power consumption That's the only one I don't quite understand. All your other points are definitely great objections. Are you saying that a clocked system consistently uses less power than a stateful but quiescently 'static' circuit? I can imagine there's a reason, but it goes counter to my experience that the faster you clock a microprocessor the more power it consumes; therefore at zero clock rate a purely data-…

Roughly, the power of a digital system is sum of the static power and the dynamic power (P=1/2 C V^2*F). 1. Discrete logic chips tend to be built in substantially larger process nodes (microns vs nanometers) that are less efficient. This means higher leakage current and more static power. 2. Discrete logic has to drive traces on a PCB, which have substantially higher capacitance (C) and therefore use more power getti…

False. CMOS gates (4000-series) consume no power except when they switch. And they work at low voltage.

There are ways to make a microcontroller use less power, by making it hard-sleep when nothing is happening, but you don't get that without extra work.

Re: Original Pong did not have any code or even a microprocessor

#147

Post by calvinmorrison »

drewzero1 wrote: post #141
calvinmorrison wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drew, why do you have a fuel diagram of a Saab 900? are you another saab guy? The wiring diagram I am working on is actually for my 900, for which the original fans are bulks, tend to break, and are a NLA. I've exhausted my spares and so now I am going a different route. But yes, these are exactly the diagrams I am talking about. Having a computerized version of this would be awesome, actual colors, inlining some inf…

Coincidentally, yes! I had to use that diagram to troubleshoot a no-fuel issue on my '83 900 last year. (Bad pump.) Now I'm learning all about fuel leaks and brake calipers and putting too many miles on (and paying too much attention to) my emergency backup Saturn. What year is your 900? I haven't heard of this fan issue yet, but there are a lot of really specific SAAB things that I'm sure I'll encounter if I can kee…

please reach out to me at calvin@pobox.com. It's good to have saab freinds on call when you have Q's. I have... a LOT of experience with 900's. This is my 88. I am getting fairly close to ripping out the whole fan relay system as it's very complex and replacing it with fewer, simpler, easier to replace and maintain switches and relays.

Even with the 80's CIS stuff I have experience so... happy to help. The pre 86 calipers are trash though, if you are east coast i have a whole set of 88 front knuckles you might be able to swap over (Not sure if it'll work with your axles).

Anyway, I have a good network of saab people offline so parts and things I can usually wrangle up. Last year we did a saab underground railroad and shipped an 1968 96 transmission 700 miles for free over a few months of people visiting people

Re: Original Pong did not have any code or even a microprocessor

#148

Post by worker_person »

okeuro49 wrote: post #118
nonrandomstring wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The implications of Karnaugh maps and state machine reduction, which we did in "Digital Logic" when I was a student, were that you could take any problem, express it as a set of states and transforms, and boil that down to an optimal netlist of discrete logic gates. Of course, in the mid 80's that was a pedagogical tool to lead us toward register machines and von Neumann architectures, but there were still some old-s…

> not need 'firmware' updates Well, you might still need flaws to be fixed in the device, but now flaws in the device can never be corrected.

Sounds like a good feature. More trustworthy device.

If a pregnancy test can run doom. It can run state level surveillance.

Re: Original Pong did not have any code or even a microprocessor

#149

Post by drewzero1 »

calvinmorrison wrote: post #147
drewzero1 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coincidentally, yes! I had to use that diagram to troubleshoot a no-fuel issue on my '83 900 last year. (Bad pump.) Now I'm learning all about fuel leaks and brake calipers and putting too many miles on (and paying too much attention to) my emergency backup Saturn. What year is your 900? I haven't heard of this fan issue yet, but there are a lot of really specific SAAB things that I'm sure I'll encounter if I can kee…

please reach out to me at calvin@pobox.com. It's good to have saab freinds on call when you have Q's. I have... a LOT of experience with 900's. This is my 88. I am getting fairly close to ripping out the whole fan relay system as it's very complex and replacing it with fewer, simpler, easier to replace and maintain switches and relays. Even with the 80's CIS stuff I have experience so... happy to help. The pre 86 cal…

That's awesome! I've never been a part of a car community anything like this before. The closest is with Saturn fans, but those cars are so plentiful that parts can almost always be found locally even with the early ones like my backup car.

I'll have to see where I get on the caliper rebuild. The surviving local SAAB shop has been a great resource, and they've offered some good used pistons if I end up needing them. I'm in the midwest and I get the sense that SAAB never had as big of a presence around here; mine was an IDS car so it was purchased directly from the factory. Most of them including mine have suffered heavy rust damage by now, so there aren't many left.

Re: Original Pong did not have any code or even a microprocessor

#150

Post by calvinmorrison »

drewzero1 wrote: post #149
calvinmorrison wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

please reach out to me at calvin@pobox.com. It's good to have saab freinds on call when you have Q's. I have... a LOT of experience with 900's. This is my 88. I am getting fairly close to ripping out the whole fan relay system as it's very complex and replacing it with fewer, simpler, easier to replace and maintain switches and relays. Even with the 80's CIS stuff I have experience so... happy to help. The pre 86 cal…

That's awesome! I've never been a part of a car community anything like this before. The closest is with Saturn fans, but those cars are so plentiful that parts can almost always be found locally even with the early ones like my backup car. I'll have to see where I get on the caliper rebuild. The surviving local SAAB shop has been a great resource, and they've offered some good used pistons if I end up needing them.…

Sorry, been meaning to reply.

The best trick I have for old caliper rebuilds is to pop the piston out with compressed air. You can do it with a bike pump and some tubes or anything you can figure out how to supply air to the brake line inlet. This will act like you are pressing the pedal, sort of.

What's an IDS Car?

Also for rust... I honestly mostly ignore it. These cars are unibody construction. You'll have to seriously be rusty to have enough structural problems. I am the king of wire wheel and por-15. I have only replaced a few sections on my cars, mostly floorboards and lower A arm areas.

For what it's worth, I have gotten by with the humble harbor freight welding setup, flux core. It doesn't look pretty but it gets metal welded. I did both of my floor pans this way, and it's... well it's fine. It's not beautiful but it does work. Copious seem sealer helps along as well.

I'd also lightly hone the inside of the calipers if you can, if there's pitting that you can feel rubbing your finger along the inner wall.

I haven't rebuild a pre 86 caliper in a long time, but there should be some good resources on the forums.

I'd mostly focus on getting on the saab facebook group. I am not on facebook, but it is a treasure trove for asking questions. Unfortunately the forums are mostly relegated to historical information now as people have transitioned to single sign on social media. There's also saabnet which is invaluable.

As for popularity, you're quite right. Saab seems most popular in new england. With it's relative wealth, weather and proximity to the outdoors, I think that was a natural fit, unfortunately that means that we lack the arizona rust free cars of yesteryear, there weren't many saabs out there to begin with.

Anyway... I can probably write forever on saab, but I have just recieved parts in the mail from the saab heritage museum and am going to try out the fitment!

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