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A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

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Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard not to feel like maybe Google has lost the ability to develop operating systems. Did they ever have that ability? I know they did a bunch of work for Android/Chrome OS. But both of those are Linux, have they tried to develop an OS from scratch before fuschia?

Yes. Android is sufficiently different from a stock Linux distro that it absolutely counts as a unique operating system. ChromeOS is also unique in interesting ways, although less successful. It's certainly a production quality OS. Perhaps more importantly, both of those are complete and have real users who found value in them.

> ChromeOS is also unique in interesting ways, although less successful.

Chrome OS absolutely dominates the education market. So less successful than Android, sure (but so is literally every other OS at this point), but still very successful.

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#142

Fuchsia still makes me deeply nervous inside. I get that linux has plenty of problems, but it really feels like Google have started to write an OS for the purposes of (a) having better remote control over the software that users run, and (b) being able to be free of the GPL. Security is the panacea that lets this happen, but I'm really not sure that it will inherently be better: iOS has effectively this model and it…

People say this about a lot of security things. Ultimately, a lot of security is about constraining systems, and that makes people nervous. When I got my first Android phone I could root it pretty trivially and run a fully customized ROM, these days it's not really practical on many devices. And for the same exact reason that I have less control over my phone, I also trust it radically more for my current threat mode…

>When I got my first Android phone I could root it pretty trivially and run a fully customized ROM, these days it's not really practical on many devices.

Some of the easiest phones to do this to today, namely the Pixel phones, are also some of the most secure stock Android phones on the market. Freedom and security are not mutually exclusive.

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#143
post #125
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Very nice right up on how unfinished and insecure Fuchsia is as a result of it being so unfinished. Did you even read the write up? The only bug found was the ability to read the kernel log. Everything else was manufactured.

You’re kidding right? Did you miss the parts about KASLR being broken and syscalls with TODOs for missing validations? And the CVEs created in relation to these?

I saw one CVE (CVE-2022-0882) for the innocuous kernel log bug. How many CVE's did you see? As for the KASLR, this was a known issue to the Fuchsia devs.

>This is a known-issue. KASLR support on the zircon kernel is just there so that it doesn't bit-rot. We are always picking up a static address instead of a dynamic one.

>Once physboot rollout is complete, that should make it easier to support kaslr.

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know a limited kind of capability - file descriptors (or kernel handles). Those are just a number that allow you to manipulate some object in a defined way. You can give this number to someone else, and they can't make use of it at all, you have to go ask the kernel (using e.g. a unix socket and ancillary messages) to pass the capability to another process.

That is sort of the opposite of a capability. In fact, files are capabilities exactly because you can hand off a file descriptor and, by virtue of that handle, you grant access. File systems aren't actually capability based (generally, in practice) because you can 'ls' and 'cd ../'. Otherwise they could be. Dropbox Paper is a good example of a capability based system. Anyone with a URL can perform actions on a page,…

Are capabilities rotated periodically? Or how do you deal with leaked values?

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#145
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would guess you have never worked as a technical suppport for your family’s computers? Because even if I very much understand your point, not being able to run untrusted code absolutely is a security advancement in certain situations. It is SO refreshing and liberating to be able to say: Do whatever you want with it, it’s very hard to damage on the software side.

Instead of ruining computing forever, you could just say no to your imaginary family of people incapable of learning. Boundaries!

Or you could just not give them admin rights and create limiter users for them. You do not have to surrender super-admin right to corporate overlords to solve this problem.

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#146

The people who work on fuchsia are very good engineers - I’ve worked with many of them in person. But the project itself has always been a staff retention project. It only existed to keep said engineers from going to a competitor. I don’t know how any understanding of fuchsia is possible without this crucial fact

This seems like sour grapes.

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#147
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's relevant because it reflects their priorities and how they view developers. The giant banners say this: although these are technical docs you may need to do your job, the most important thing you must see above all is an announcement of how morally pure we (think we) are. Once isn't enough. On our blog isn't enough. It must be the biggest and most eyecatching thing on literally every single page of our documenta…

You’re comment and a sibling both express that these messages are off-putting to international audiences? Why is that? BLM originated in the US, but black people definitely experience racism elsewhere. The movement is not necessarily US exclusive. I’ve seen plenty of tech companies with Ukraine banners on their websites, and have not seen a single criticism. Wouldn’t such banners exclude US developers under that logi…

>You’re comment and a sibling both express that these messages are off-putting to international audiences?

Non-American distinct from both of them here: They're right.

>black people definitely experience racism elsewhere

Persuambly you think BLM is a generic "Racism Bad" message, so 3 things to say about this

1- BLM is not a generic "Racism Bad" message. It's the name of a movement whose leaders used donor money to accumulate personal wealth. It's the chant used by protestors who burned down homes and stole from people's business. It's the motto that people who write books to argue that disputing a racism accusation is a sign of guilt and fragility. I consider myself a non-racist, and this movement is not the kind of things I support.

2- The kinds of people and media outlets who support BLM tends to be selective and hypocritical. Wouldn't an honest person who shout "BLM" when a black man is killed by a police officer, wouldn't that person also be obligated to shout "White Lives Matter", WLM, when white innocents are killed by a black criminal because of their race ? This last event happens to be a real thing that actually happened (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waukesha_Christmas_parade_atta...), by a self-confessed black terrorist. Searching for "Black Supremacy", the only response in the first page is a short Wikipedia page, the rest is articles talking about White Supremacy instead. I have a feeling things are not so balanced here.

3- Even granting that BLM is a good moral cause to support, how is it relevant to a tech document ? Let us grant the following causes are all worthy of moral solidarity ["Climate Change", "China's Treatment of Uyghur Muslims", "Sexual Harrasment", "Child Abuse", "Animal Cruelty"]. All of the elements of this list are morally abhorrent things to me that I want to prevent or reverse. Now, where and when should I say this? at my home? to each and every one of my friends or family ? at work ? on the street ? Is there any time and place where I can safely lie down and not speak about atrocities, for once?

>I’ve seen plenty of tech companies with Ukraine banners on their websites

I'm very very annoyed by this too. Seeing Github and JetBrains issue a statment about this conflict is the most pathetic, hypocritical and forced thing I have seen in a very long while.

Point 3 above applies to it straightforawrdly with no explanation, point 1 and 2 also apply as follows

1- Pro-Ukraine sentiment isn't a neutral "War Bad" message, it usually encodes within it pretty dubious and very partisan assertions, such as the belief that all Russians are to - and should be - blame and punish for Putin's action, as well as unhealthy and fanatic support for the Ukrainian government and its actions.

2- Tons of countries, everywhere and all the time, have experinced invasions and other illegal military actions. The example off the top of my head is Yemen. Children dying of starvation, civilaians bombed and hospitals wrecked, *Since 2015*. Did any of those companies issue statments then ? Let's forget about the past. Do we have a right to expect those companies to protest every single war and illegal military actions, regardless of the position of US politicians and US foreign policy, in the future?

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#148
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would tend to agree, unless pinning is enforced/the default.

I think the idea is "ensuring software is always up to date", so no pinning by default.

Until they drop support for your hardware... Then what happens?

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#149
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would guess you have never worked as a technical suppport for your family’s computers? Because even if I very much understand your point, not being able to run untrusted code absolutely is a security advancement in certain situations. It is SO refreshing and liberating to be able to say: Do whatever you want with it, it’s very hard to damage on the software side.

Instead of ruining computing forever, you could just say no to your imaginary family of people incapable of learning. Boundaries!

You can really tell who lived through the era of 20 stacked, all-unwanted browser "toolbars" and Bonzi Buddy and such, and who didn't.

That didn't go away because people learned. And it never would have.

Re: A Kernel Hacker Meets Fuchsia OS

#150
post #65

The objective of computer security seems to have shifted from preventing someone else from running unauthoirzed software on your computer to preventing you from running unauthorized software on your computer. I would not describe this as security.

Just like DRM, TC and many more, it's about keeping vendors in power.

The ones being sandboxed is the user.

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