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Happy Birthday, Libera Chat

libera.chat

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Re: Happy Birthday, Libera Chat

#141

Can people explain what they like about IRC? I've often found the idea of having a community chat around some topic quite intriguing, but in practice when I've tried briefly joining such communities, I simply don't last long, as it doesn't grab my attention. Rooms tend to have tens or a hundred people joined, but saying nothing, until someone has a problem they want to talk about or question they want to ask, which i…

I absolutely love IRC.

It's blazing fast, uses very little bandwidth and is not polluted by images and stupid stickers, shaking windows or chat bubbles. Of these only the images can be handy sometimes but you can use a weblink for that.

Also, it's anonymous, you can just make up whatever nickname you want, no need to register (ok for some channels/servers they can require it). Just make sure to use a VPS to hide your IP. No "create an account with us first, what's your date of birth and other stuff we have no actual reason to ask for". No terms & conditions crap.

The whole thing with the rooms with hundreds of people joined but not talking is exactly what I like. There is a huge powerful community but very little noise. People don't blab on about what they had for dinner (except in the offtopic channels). IRC is really to the point, though this is a cultural thing, not technical. If you go to #obscureapp you will see talk about this obscure app, and don't have to wade through cat pictures and other BS. Because none of the regulars want to sift through this shit every day so such distractions are quickly moderated.

What you need is a bouncer. I use Quassel myself because it has a GUI client which makes it easy to control multiple connections to networks (with other bouncers this can be complicated). And it has a great Android client QuasselDroid. With Quassel you can just visit it once a day and scroll back to see what you've missed.

In IRC time is also very fluid, you can just reply to a question someone asked much later. If you saw an unanswered question, you probably didn't wait long enough. In fact it is super annoying when people plonk down a question on IRC and then leave 1 minute later. This is not how it works when people are on tens of channels at the same time!

If you're on there regularly and keep a bouncer running 24/7 you will get to know the 'usual suspects' in each channel and you will see a very strong sense of community.

I hate Discord, I like Matrix but matrix becomes difficult to manage if you join 50 public channels. The UI of its clients are focused on being a whatsapp/telegram replacement, not an IRC replacement.

As one actual specific example of what I like about IRC, I had an issue once with a FOSS package on FreeBSD. I mentioned this on the right channel, and it turned out the maintainer was there as well. He confirmed he saw the same issue, found a fix, gave me a workaround and published the final fix 10 minutes later. This is what makes IRC (and Libera in particular) so great. This kind of support is amazing. And this wasn't even a small package at all.

In comparison: I work for a multinational and we pay millions to the usual big tech suspects for "premium" support with agents that don't know more than it says in the kbase which I have already read, not to mention all the jumping through dark pattern hoops I have to go through just to get a ticket in the system. When it gets through I have to reiterate everything I have already said in the ticket, then they will tell me I'm doing it wrong because according to the docs it should work. Yeah, I read the docs, I'm contacting you because it doesn't. Then follows the "troubleshooting" which involves turning unrelated things on/off in the vague hope that it might work because they can't tell me they have no clue as to what the problem is. Fast forward a week or 2 or sometimes a month and if we bug our account manager enough they might grant us the extraordinary privilege of sending our request to someone who is actually slightly involved in development. Only at this point the issue is fixed though we usually have to wait for ages for it to make its way into production. And we pay really big bucks for this crap.

This is where IRC shines. And a lot of the things I mention are not even technical. You could do this thing on any platform, really. But it's part of the culture of IRC. I think what also helps is that the only people who are still sticking with IRC are quite technical so it bypasses the whole "expecting you're a moron that doesn't read the docs" stuff. Bonus points for those that have a registered + cloaked nick and haven't logged in 2 seconds ago :)

Re: Happy Birthday, Libera Chat

#142

Can people explain what they like about IRC? I've often found the idea of having a community chat around some topic quite intriguing, but in practice when I've tried briefly joining such communities, I simply don't last long, as it doesn't grab my attention. Rooms tend to have tens or a hundred people joined, but saying nothing, until someone has a problem they want to talk about or question they want to ask, which i…

My point is not to dis on IRC/chat rooms here, just explaining why I've never particularly found it engaging, and so I'm curious what others see in it, as I feel it's something I could learn to appreciate if I tried a bit harder. I have also always felt this way, trying to get into it and thinking I'll enjoy it but never really succeeding. Maybe all of the people trying to get into it need to create a channel on Libe…

> I have also always felt this way, trying to get into it and thinking I'll enjoy it but never really succeeding. Maybe all of the people trying to get into it need to create a channel on Libera and just start talking?

Tbh if you're on hacker news you're already halfway there. You clearly like high-density no-nonsense communication and aren't put off by the lack of a glossy consumer app.

Slack is kinda IRC just more glossy though. I have a lot of time for slack groups, especially the professional ones like MacAdmins. Don't forget slack also has actual search (at least in the groups that pay for it).

But lurking is normal. When there's 500 users in a channel you don't want to go "hey everyone how's your day" constantly because nobody has time to keep up with that if everyone does it. Though if you're into that, there's offtopic channels usually with people that do have time for it.

Re: Happy Birthday, Libera Chat

#143

Can people explain what they like about IRC? I've often found the idea of having a community chat around some topic quite intriguing, but in practice when I've tried briefly joining such communities, I simply don't last long, as it doesn't grab my attention. Rooms tend to have tens or a hundred people joined, but saying nothing, until someone has a problem they want to talk about or question they want to ask, which i…

> although I am consistently surprised by the number of requests posted to reddit to 'join our discord community'. (My reaction is always kind of, well, we're here in this reddit where there is already a community, so.. I feel the same way about IRC (and Matrix). I think a part of the problem is that the technical Q&A discussion that happens in most of the dev channels would be better served taking place on a forum.…

> I feel the same way about IRC (and Matrix). I think a part of the problem is that the technical Q&A discussion that happens in most of the dev channels would be better served taking place on a forum. Lots of those chats aren't happening in real-time anyways. And if you're not there to receive the messages, the information is lost.

This is where a good bouncer comes in. I can search all the way back to the beginning of when I joined a channel in Quassel. It's not lost at all, and a forum is much less direct.

This is one thing where Matrix shines by the way, as when you join a channel you can even go back to things that were said before you joined. Though this is a bit of a double-edged sword. Sometimes when you say something it's good to be aware of who's there to read it and who isn't.

Re: Happy Birthday, Libera Chat

#144
post #127
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with sibling comments. I'd also add that IRC nowadays is very different from what it used to be. If you removed bouncers channels would be mostly empty. That's why you often see silence. Back in the days IRC had very vibrant communities. I'd say it's turning into nostalgia now.

You're probably making the mistake of joining communities that have been embrace-extended-extinguished by slack and matrix bridges. Users on the attacking service get full access to IRC but also additional channels. For who don't mind the insane web bloatware it's simply the least friction path to abandon irc to participate. In my experience communities that banned these bridges have remained vibrant and active.

This is a thing, yeah, unfortunately. Some channels have really awful bridges like the #calyxos channel on Libera that bridges to matrix but doesn't puppet its users. So all messages seem to come from the same user and you lack nick colours etc.

And indeed, it really thins out the discussions because not all channels are bridged usually.

Re: Happy Birthday, Libera Chat

#145
post #77

Can people explain what they like about IRC? I've often found the idea of having a community chat around some topic quite intriguing, but in practice when I've tried briefly joining such communities, I simply don't last long, as it doesn't grab my attention. Rooms tend to have tens or a hundred people joined, but saying nothing, until someone has a problem they want to talk about or question they want to ask, which i…

It's not engaging, because it's made for developers. It's a serious tool, and it's not corporate. Professionals want something that works, not something attractive. For example there are two big c++ discord servers. You can't even search for discord servers, you can't favorite single channels. You quickly get overwhelmed with notifications. Not to mention the things you have to click when you join a server. And it ru…

Yeah the notifications and other tricks to try and 'engage' you, so annoying about discord and the other glossy chat apps. "Did you try this channel? People are waiting for you!" bullshit. IRC is clean, fast and efficient.

Re: Happy Birthday, Libera Chat

#146
post #90

Woah, been a year already. I remember sitting on mIRC for hours and hours watching the users flood into libera and out of freenode. I will never forget how absolutely gobstricken I was with how perfectly the Libera team executed everything, and they were so incredibly polite through what has to be some of the densest chaos one could witness on the internet. Really historic day. Happy birthday, Libera!

I agree. I really thought the whole thing would split and kill the community but within weeks after Libera started everything was as if we never left freenode. With some improvements even. Really well done.

Also kudos to the Libera team to not continue trying to fight the battle, after the first few weeks I don't remember freenode ever even being mentioned. They just focused on getting back to life as usual which worked great.

Re: Happy Birthday, Libera Chat

#147

The fact that this doesn't even mention Freenode is hilarious, and so awkward. Whoever wrote this had to really go out of their way to construct a history that isn't technically wrong, but, if you didn't know that Libera got its start as a fork of Freenode that almost everyone wanted to leave as soon as possible, you'd never figure it out.

Hi, one of the blog authors here, Fuchs. My initial draft did include a sentence about freenode in the first paragraph, but after a short internal discussion we decided to remove that, so I rewrote that part. Rather easy and quick, actually. Now on the why: Libera was a clear cut. Reasons for that are different per person affected, but include e.g. a lot of pain to see what has become of something we put years in, wa…

> We always communicated and worked in that way, we also asked people who basically lifestreamed the decline of freenode, which looked a mixture of a bad trash tv novella and a dumpster fire, to please move it out of our main channel. The blog post basically just continues in that spirit.

This really helped. You focused on "getting life back to normal" from the get-go, looking to move forward instead of looking back at the anger and despair. This really helped to make Libera the home it always was within a matter of weeks. Really well done and thank you.

For me this mature and positive mindset only increased my trust in the team, there was never any need to rebuild it because none was lost :)

Re: Happy Birthday, Libera Chat

#148
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi, one of the blog authors here, Fuchs. My initial draft did include a sentence about freenode in the first paragraph, but after a short internal discussion we decided to remove that, so I rewrote that part. Rather easy and quick, actually. Now on the why: Libera was a clear cut. Reasons for that are different per person affected, but include e.g. a lot of pain to see what has become of something we put years in, wa…

You may want to make it a 'clean cut', but that's not how it comes off as. When I read it (as well as everyone in our Libera channel who commented), it comes off as sounding so terrified of the clown prince that the word 'Freenode' can't even be mentioned, and the huge lacuna looks hilarious (especially the parts about growth).

Yeah this is what I thought also, but fuchs's answer makes a lot of sense, and I have seen how that approach to looking forward really worked. But you're right, I did get that feeling too from the blog post.

Perhaps just a line about wanting to look forward and not dwell on the past would have clarified it.

Re: Happy Birthday, Libera Chat

#149

Can people explain what they like about IRC? I've often found the idea of having a community chat around some topic quite intriguing, but in practice when I've tried briefly joining such communities, I simply don't last long, as it doesn't grab my attention. Rooms tend to have tens or a hundred people joined, but saying nothing, until someone has a problem they want to talk about or question they want to ask, which i…

Normally you are going to want to go into the "offtopic" channels for general chatting. Normal support channels are often very focused and explicitly disallow non-support conversations, but it depends on the specific channel and the operators of the channel of course!

Re: Happy Birthday, Libera Chat

#150
post #90

Woah, been a year already. I remember sitting on mIRC for hours and hours watching the users flood into libera and out of freenode. I will never forget how absolutely gobstricken I was with how perfectly the Libera team executed everything, and they were so incredibly polite through what has to be some of the densest chaos one could witness on the internet. Really historic day. Happy birthday, Libera!

I agree. I really thought the whole thing would split and kill the community but within weeks after Libera started everything was as if we never left freenode. With some improvements even. Really well done. Also kudos to the Libera team to not continue trying to fight the battle, after the first few weeks I don't remember freenode ever even being mentioned. They just focused on getting back to life as usual which wor…

That's my experience as well. Ample opportunities to attach a bunch of extra fluff to the whole thing and it wasn't even a temptation for them to do so. Very professional and expertly executed. I can't think of many comparable examples.
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