Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation • Hacker News Board

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#141

Post by pmoriarty » Sat, Apr 23, 2022, 10:18 PM UTC

jasfi wrote: post #5

If you read the article they're asking for more than explaining algorithms. Overall they want the the tech providers to be responsible. Explaining algorithms could, in theory, give away a competitive advantage. However fairness to users seems to be a priority in this decision.

"Explaining algorithms could, in theory, give away a competitive advantage."

Why should anyone care if they have a competitive advantage?

If anything I want them to have a disadvantage, lose money, and go out of business.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#142

Post by frereubu » Sat, Apr 23, 2022, 10:22 PM UTC

IANAL, so happy to be corrected, but my understanding is that EU and US law work in quite different ways. EU law sets general rules, and law courts decide what that means with reference to existing legal precendents. US law is very, very specific about what each clause means and how it should be interpreted.

Every time I see these kinds of discussions I wonder if quite a few of the disagreements are due to e.g. US commenters worried by the relative lack of specific details.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#143

Post by netizen-936824 » Sat, Apr 23, 2022, 10:28 PM UTC

Epa095 wrote: post #136

ernirulez wrote: post #132

EU is becoming more like an authoritarian state. They put constraints on companies but allow governments to have full control and surveillance over their citizens. It's so hopocrit

I don't see how it's hypocritical to give democratically elected governments different possibilities that random private companies. It's government's job to put constraints on companies, stopping them from becoming the absolute assholes they become if they have no limitations. That does not make them authoritarian.

Some people are sad that they can't set up businesses which exploit the populace as easily in the US I guess?

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#144

Post by smrtinsert » Sat, Apr 23, 2022, 10:28 PM UTC

ernirulez wrote: post #132

EU is becoming more like an authoritarian state. They put constraints on companies but allow governments to have full control and surveillance over their citizens. It's so hopocrit

You're saying governments shouldn't have the ability to govern its people, or inquire as to how global scale companies impact their citizens? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#145

Post by rtsil » Sat, Apr 23, 2022, 10:32 PM UTC

ernirulez wrote: post #132

EU is becoming more like an authoritarian state. They put constraints on companies but allow governments to have full control and surveillance over their citizens. It's so hopocrit

As a EU citizen, I fully expect my country and the EU to "put constraints" (i.e. regulate) on companies, so everything seems to work as expected.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#146

Post by rafale » Sat, Apr 23, 2022, 10:34 PM UTC

Epa095 wrote: post #136

ernirulez wrote: post #132

EU is becoming more like an authoritarian state. They put constraints on companies but allow governments to have full control and surveillance over their citizens. It's so hopocrit

I don't see how it's hypocritical to give democratically elected governments different possibilities that random private companies. It's government's job to put constraints on companies, stopping them from becoming the absolute assholes they become if they have no limitations. That does not make them authoritarian.

The tyranny of majority is a real threat. Power should be "shared" (or under contention). Companies just want to take your cash, governments can take your freedom.

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#147

Post by rtsil » Sat, Apr 23, 2022, 10:36 PM UTC

omegalulw wrote: post #129

jasfi wrote: post #5

If you read the article they're asking for more than explaining algorithms. Overall they want the the tech providers to be responsible. Explaining algorithms could, in theory, give away a competitive advantage. However fairness to users seems to be a priority in this decision.

I would love to first see a technical definition of fairness from EU that can be used to evaluate algorithms. That is a non-trivial detail often overlooked from these discussions.

Not technical, but fairness is the opposite of "our algorithm is so complicated that we can't prevent it from penalizing you even if you are not at fault. Unless you reach the top of HN, in which case we will manually intervene to fix things."

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#148

Post by throwaway4323r » Sat, Apr 23, 2022, 10:40 PM UTC

unless you can reproduce this is not going to cut. I dont think this is going to help. It only creates more useless software jobs

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#149

Post by leksak » Sat, Apr 23, 2022, 10:42 PM UTC

vmception wrote: post #117

jasfi wrote: post #5

If you read the article they're asking for more than explaining algorithms. Overall they want the the tech providers to be responsible. Explaining algorithms could, in theory, give away a competitive advantage. However fairness to users seems to be a priority in this decision.

Nevada Gaming Control Board requires source code of all the casino games Easy to see this concept expanding

This deserves more attention as it does set a good precedent

Re: Google, Meta, others will have to explain algorithms under new EU legislation

#150

Post by krastanov » Sat, Apr 23, 2022, 10:43 PM UTC

frereubu wrote: post #142

IANAL, so happy to be corrected, but my understanding is that EU and US law work in quite different ways. EU law sets general rules, and law courts decide what that means with reference to existing legal precendents. US law is very, very specific about what each clause means and how it should be interpreted. Every time I see these kinds of discussions I wonder if quite a few of the disagreements are due to e.g. US co…

Did you flip EU and US in your comment? My understanding is the exact opposite of what you wrote:

- US, common law, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law

- EU, civil law, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_law_(legal_system)

Citing: Civil law is a legal system originating in mainland Europe and adopted in much of the world. The civil law system is intellectualized within the framework of Roman law, and with core principles codified into a referable system, which serves as the primary source of law. The civil law system is often contrasted with the common law system, which originated in medieval England, whose intellectual framework historically came from uncodified judge-made case law, and gives precedential authority to prior court decisions.