What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world? • Hacker News Board

Re: What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world?

#141

Post by hn_neverguess » Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 5:24 PM UTC

abxytg wrote: post #102

mrjangles wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>how modern work for a lot of jobs has become de facto indentured servitude...The average worker can't afford anything without taking on debt. For people from other countries wondering about the veracity of these claims, let's take an example: The typical shitty job everyone on here complains about is working at an amazon warehouse. This is a job people with no skills take on. They pay 15 USD an hour. In other curren…

Cynically untrue. Amazon is not even close to bottom of the barrel. And it's clear you haven't paid market rent in a major city since you bought that starter home back in the 90s - 42k is a joke when your rent is close to $2500 and you get no benefits.

> Amazon is not even close to bottom of the barrel.

What would you define as the bottom of the barrel then? There has to be a sensible threshold that delineates between 1) "I encountered a lot of bad luck but I am motivated and want to get myself out of this situation and 2) I simply don't care. Most of the physically able that fall under 1) can get a job at an Amazon warehouse. For those in poor health, I will agree that the US is no match for other countries.

> 42k is a joke when your rent is close to $2500

You are approaching this subject as if living in an area where rents are $2500 is a right and not a privilege (the median rent in the US is $1,104 [0]). You might be shocked to hear that even in the most socialist countries in the world, there are gated neighborhoods and areas that are off limits to the poor (I experienced this first-hand living in a country that's often used as a socialist success story). I understand that not living in high-income areas leads to bad schools and a ton of other factors, but this is not a US-only phenomenon. Taking the necessary steps to remove the variations in rent is a strong step towards full-blown communism, which comes with its own set of downsides.

> and you get no benefits.

Nonsense, Amazon has surprisingly good benefits [1]. I am all for bashing Amazon's various horrible practices (eg: launching white-label brands that steal data from their own customers, total disregard for trademarks in their paid search bidding, etc), but when it comes to benefits, it will be hard to find a warehouse job with better perks.

[0] https://ipropertymanagement.com/research/average-rent-by-yea... [1] https://hiring.amazon.com/why-amazon/benefits#/

Re: What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world?

#142

Post by giardini » Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 5:24 PM UTC

jetbalsa wrote: post #123

giardini wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

alexfromapex says >"...Healthcare, extremely high rent, and things like property tax where failure to pay sends you to prison are used as the means of coercion. If the United States continues on the current political course..." AFAIK you cannot be sent to prison for not paying property taxes in the USA.

Some Tax Evasion laws do allow for criminal charges. tends to only be charged in extreme cases, but can happen.

Tax evasion is a crime and imprisonment is a punishment reserved for criminal activity. Failing to pay property tax is not a crime in itself.

If someone is charged with tax evasion they are charged with something other than merely owning property and not paying taxes. They are charged with some specific criminal act.

Taxation OTOH is a civil, not a criminal, matter. If someone doesn't pay their property tax then, in the worst case, control/ownership of the property is taken by the relevant authorities, the property sold and the taxes paid to the extent possible.

Re: What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world?

#143

Post by hereforphone » Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 5:26 PM UTC

mrjangles wrote: post #83

alexfromapex wrote: post #31

I think this article starts to touch on a topic area I don't hear much about but am extremely frustrated by: how modern work for a lot of jobs has become de facto indentured servitude. In the "When They Know They've Got You" section, they mention the real challenges of not being able to obtain a lawyer if things truly aren't fair. The average worker can't afford anything without taking on debt. Insurance is a scam in…

>how modern work for a lot of jobs has become de facto indentured servitude...The average worker can't afford anything without taking on debt. For people from other countries wondering about the veracity of these claims, let's take an example: The typical shitty job everyone on here complains about is working at an amazon warehouse. This is a job people with no skills take on. They pay 15 USD an hour. In other curren…

It's partly that we (the West, not just Americans) are so rich that we're out of touch with reality. Another way of looking at it is that hardship, which has not only been a part of life since the beginning of humanity but has arguably defined it, has been notably missing recently. So now we have young people complaining about things that would have very recently been appreciated and welcomed. At the same time they're bashing cultural values / norms that are in part responsible for this elimination of hardship.

Re: What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world?

#144

Post by lr4444lr » Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 5:27 PM UTC

If you are $120k a year SE and play your cards right, you can sometimes maneuver into a situation where your coworkers aren’t just competent-on-average but actively bright, sometimes brilliant people. At $35k, usually you are trying to identify the one other person in the office who also got unlucky so you can be friends with someone who isn’t getting remarried a month after their fourth divorce.

This can't be understated. Sometimes I've been in my successful dev bubble for so long that I forgot my low level preprofessional job interactions. It was miserable. Not because the bosses treated people badly, but because there was literally no kind of incentive that could get a lot of my colleagues to be any better. They only responded to the whip.

Re: What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world?

#145

Post by smrtinsert » Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 5:27 PM UTC

aaron_m04 wrote: post #99

mrjangles wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>how modern work for a lot of jobs has become de facto indentured servitude...The average worker can't afford anything without taking on debt. For people from other countries wondering about the veracity of these claims, let's take an example: The typical shitty job everyone on here complains about is working at an amazon warehouse. This is a job people with no skills take on. They pay 15 USD an hour. In other curren…

I have heard reports online of people having to use a cane after a few years of working in these warehouses. 15 USD an hour is not so much when it costs you your health _and_ there is no proper system of universal healthcare.

It's nothing without health care. Not to mention time off for new parents or much better compensation for being laid off etc.

Re: What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world?

#146

Post by mschuster91 » Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 5:29 PM UTC

mrjangles wrote: post #83

alexfromapex wrote: post #31

I think this article starts to touch on a topic area I don't hear much about but am extremely frustrated by: how modern work for a lot of jobs has become de facto indentured servitude. In the "When They Know They've Got You" section, they mention the real challenges of not being able to obtain a lawyer if things truly aren't fair. The average worker can't afford anything without taking on debt. Insurance is a scam in…

>how modern work for a lot of jobs has become de facto indentured servitude...The average worker can't afford anything without taking on debt. For people from other countries wondering about the veracity of these claims, let's take an example: The typical shitty job everyone on here complains about is working at an amazon warehouse. This is a job people with no skills take on. They pay 15 USD an hour. In other curren…

So what, even if Amazon pays slightly above a minimum living wage, the working conditions are extremely bad (e.g. no adequate toilets, extremely long walking times towards the break room, drivers being forced to piss in bottles, employees being pitted against each other by a relentless algorithm without respect for differences in age, body strength or whatever).

Given that the social security system in the US (and to be fair, even in Europe) is pretty lacking and Amazon (as well as Walmart) is setting up shop exclusively in areas with high unemployment, it can very well be said that people have the free choice to work at Amazon instead of another employer that treats their workers better, so yes it is perfectly valid to call it "de facto indentured servitude".

Re: What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world?

#147

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 5:33 PM UTC

vasco wrote: post #68

woodruffw wrote: post #30

This was a great read. I think the true value of money is one of HN's biggest bubbles: the average person on here (but not all of us!) jumped right from their undergraduate career to making a six-figure salary in a city with lavish public amenities (by American standards). It's very easy to forget that the average American salary is less than half of that, and even that hides the number of people living well below th…

This is a public website, there's no security check for "Is american, went to Stanford and lives in SF pulling 100k/yr". I know plenty of software developers that frequent this site and make around 20-30k a year in Europe.

[deleted]

Re: What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world?

#148

Post by bglazer » Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 5:33 PM UTC

rajin444 wrote: post #100

silexia wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The solution here is to open up the free markets again. This means: -Right to repair -Abolish the patent system and non competes -Drop the IRS and let the government simply print money it needs... This eliminates all tax loopholes and special treatment. Perfectly fair wealth tax.

No matter what system we propose it can’t handle human greed and abuses of power. Bad actors ruin everything. We need to figure out how to build high trust societies with a shared culture. There’s a reason large corporations are pushing diversity so hard - it keeps abuses like those described above possible.

Are you advocating for ethno-nationalism?

Re: What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world?

#149

Post by hhlevnjak3 » Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 5:33 PM UTC

weakfish wrote: post #70

frontman1988 wrote: post #59

These low paying shitty jobs in developed countries sound quite pleasant compared to what people in third world countries are forced to do. These jobs are what came to my mind as an Indian when I read the title: https://dw.com/en/india-manual-scavengers-continue-to-remove... https://thewire.in/labour/manual-scavenging-sanitation-worke...

“Things are worse somewhere else, therefore we shouldn’t improve anything here”

Or put differently, if we can't improve things in a rich society, how do we expect it to improve elsewhere.

Re: What does “shitty job” mean in the low-skill, low-pay world?

#150

Post by jemfinch » Sun, Apr 17, 2022, 5:33 PM UTC

hn_neverguess wrote: post #141

abxytg wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cynically untrue. Amazon is not even close to bottom of the barrel. And it's clear you haven't paid market rent in a major city since you bought that starter home back in the 90s - 42k is a joke when your rent is close to $2500 and you get no benefits.

> Amazon is not even close to bottom of the barrel. What would you define as the bottom of the barrel then? There has to be a sensible threshold that delineates between 1) "I encountered a lot of bad luck but I am motivated and want to get myself out of this situation and 2) I simply don't care. Most of the physically able that fall under 1) can get a job at an Amazon warehouse. For those in poor health, I will agree…

> You are approaching this subject as if living in an area where rents are $2500 is a right and not a privilege

And you're approaching this subject as if Amazon warehouses are uniformly distributed throughout the country, such that median rents _matter_. They aren't, and they don't. Amazon warehouses are typically just outside of (or even within) population centers, where rents exceed median, often substantially.

How far should a person commute for a $15/hr warehouse job? How far _can_ they commute?