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Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

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Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#141

Post by tharkun__ »

apostate wrote: post #128
NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No; that's different from a non-compete. The practice of "gardening leave" is giving an employee a relatively long notice period (say, 3 months). If the employee gives notice, the employer tells them to stay home during the notice period; they are still technically employed during that period, however.

Gotcha; never been subject to gardening leave myself, but I always assumed it exists for the same purpose as a noncompete, i.e. to provide a 'cooling off' period to lessen the competitive impact that the exiting employee can have by switching to another firm. I assumed that since it's been around a while in finance that the "paid noncompete" idea became a negotiated part of the comp.

So funny to hear this. 3 month notice periods (in either direction) are bog standard in parts of Europe. And it's entirely normal to just keep working, training your replacement/finishing off stuff.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#142

Post by [deleted] »

kixiQu wrote: post #118
wnolens wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Amazons leadership fundamentally does not see their employees as human beings I'm there right now and this is very true. It isn't even a hidden truth about working there. In fact, the company has a set of principles [0] that are necessary to adopt and use to justify all decisions you make or feedback you give to others. And missing from this set of principles? Any mention of the humanity of those you are leading. T…

This isn't a meaningful criticism because -- well, watch what people do, not what they say. But it isn't even coherent because you're working with an out of date list: https://amazon.jobs/en/internal/principles

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#143

Post by apostate »

tharkun__ wrote: post #141
apostate wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gotcha; never been subject to gardening leave myself, but I always assumed it exists for the same purpose as a noncompete, i.e. to provide a 'cooling off' period to lessen the competitive impact that the exiting employee can have by switching to another firm. I assumed that since it's been around a while in finance that the "paid noncompete" idea became a negotiated part of the comp.

So funny to hear this. 3 month notice periods (in either direction) are bog standard in parts of Europe. And it's entirely normal to just keep working, training your replacement/finishing off stuff.

I'm not sure that's quite the same (no clue if the garden leave terminology is used in the parts of Europe you refer to). https://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/gardening-leave.asp

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#144

Post by otterley »

vorpalhex wrote: post #126
otterley wrote: post #6

If you’re asking us here in HN, then it’s very unlikely that you have the sort of negotiating power required to get any sizable company to approve a customized set of legal documents relating to your hire. Changes to the standard set of hiring paperwork often require multiple managers and lawyers to sign off on it. For most positions and candidates, the effort isn’t considered worth it. You can certainly ask, but don…

I frequently get exceptions and changes to contracts. This has included me telling I flat out would not sign a particular document. Never actually had it be a blocker or a problem. I'm just an engineer. Lots of people will say it's a problem. They will claim it's going to be a big issue. It isn't. Just stick to your guns. Be polite and be patient. Make it clear you have plenty of time available. I had someone try to…

Out of curiosity, what was the size of the largest employer you were able to negotiate an employment agreement with, and what was the term at issue?

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#145

Post by tharkun__ »

apostate wrote: post #143
tharkun__ wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So funny to hear this. 3 month notice periods (in either direction) are bog standard in parts of Europe. And it's entirely normal to just keep working, training your replacement/finishing off stuff.

I'm not sure that's quite the same (no clue if the garden leave terminology is used in the parts of Europe you refer to). https://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/gardening-leave.asp

That's my point about it being funny. In one place a 3 month notice period is considered a gardening leave for special higher level employees and you still basically get escorted out of the building.

In other parts of the world it is just the bog standard notice period and nobody is escorted out of any building and expected to keep working during that 3 month period.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#146

Post by cycomanic »

optymizer wrote: post #117

Former Amazonian. I didn't renegotiate the non-competes and I wouldn't stress much about this. To my knowledge, this is one of those overly broad statements they put into the contract because it's advantageous to them and to reserve the right to sue the "VP of something" who took the knowledge and ran away. They won't act on it for your regular employees because it costs them money to do so and developers _routinely_…

I am surprised by the many post who make this statement. I mean this is significant financial risk based on the notion of "I guess they won't really enforce it".

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#147

Post by pcaharrier »

gnopgnip wrote: post #112
pcaharrier wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily. Many such contracts also contain a choice of law clause that specifies which state's laws will apply.

For agreements entered into after January 1, 2017, California Labor Code Section 925 clarifies that employers may not require employees––who primarily work and reside in California––to agree to forum-selection and choice-of-law clauses that select non-California forums and/or laws, unless such employee is “individually represented by legal counsel in negotiating the terms of an agreement.”

Correct. California is its own beast when it comes to employment law and franchise law and a host of related issues.

Edit: and I glossed over the part about "employees living full time in California." My bad.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#148

Post by pcaharrier »

grumple wrote: post #105
pcaharrier wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily. Many such contracts also contain a choice of law clause that specifies which state's laws will apply.

The same "not necessarily" would presumably apply to the choice of law clause as well, for example if California decided they didn't want a company attempting to evade their laws with such a clause, which presumably would be at the discretion of a judge who probably isn't too fond of that behavior.

Right. See my other comment.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#149

Post by kyleplum »

systemvoltage wrote: post #120
ozzythecat wrote: post #71

I can’t answer your specific question, but I would really encourage you to think more about the AWS offer. Having spent a decade at Amazon, across several organizations, I don’t recommend it as a place to work. There was a NYTimes article about the company in 2015. Everything there still reflects the day to day culture of the company. For me Amazon took an unprecedented toll on my mental and physical health. I did ea…

I've hired several AWS engineers. Everyone of them, despite of having left AWS had nothing but good things to say. You'd think that since they left AWS, they'd have a boat load of things to unload. The only gripe I heard was occassional work/life balance during launch or critical times. Otherwise, AWS/Amazon is akin to working at Intel, GE, IBM, Oracle, etc. Bog standard corporate job. You are a cog in the machine, g…

To be fair, it's generally discouraged to speak ill about a previous workplace when interviewing/working at a new job as it may reflect more poorly on you as an individual than the company you are disparaging.

Re: Ask HN: Has anyone successfully renegotiated an AWS non-compete?

#150

Post by cycomanic »

rosndo wrote: post #129
carimura wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ouch. what awful advice. lying by omission is not only a terrible way to enter into a trusting relationship with a new employer but could also be committing fraud.

Not advertising the fact that you previously signed a non-binding unenforceable noncompete is not lying by omission.

Except that as we heard from many here, they might very well be binding and enforceable in many states.
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