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Dutch scandal serves as a warning for Europe over risks of using algorithms

politico.eu

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Re: Dutch scandal serves as a warning for Europe over risks of using algorithms

#141

Post by vanderZwan »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #117
vanderZwan wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on their username I would guess "being not-white in a country that is totally convinced it isn't racist but is actually seriously racist". Also, it's not discussed much but the Netherlands has a very serious "old boy network" problem where white douchebags who didn't achieve much during their studies except boozing with other white douchebags keep failing upwards. It's the reason why me and my mixed ethnicity b…

>but the Netherlands has a very serious "old boy network" problem where white douchebags who didn't achieve much during their studies except boozing with other white douchebags keep failing upwards. This isn't some Dutch thing. I've seen the exact same thing in Germany, Austria and Switzerland at the big-name companies in those countries (like BMW, etc.). Basically, to succeeded, be a white local from a mid-upper/upp…

We're in agreement - I did not mean to imply it's an exclusively Dutch problem, I was just pointing out that it's a problem that isn't brought up that much when people talk about issues in Dutch society.

Also, since "white" is a flexible term that varies per country but always basically designates which socially constructed ethnicities are the "exclusive clubs" on top of society, it should probably be pointed out to for everyone who has no experience with North-Western European whiteness that people from Eastern and Southern European countries are not considered white in these countries most of the time either, except perhaps when they're compared to immigrants from countries even further away.

Re: Dutch scandal serves as a warning for Europe over risks of using algorithms

#142

Post by nullc »

mschuster91 wrote: post #60
Kaotique wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand one of the main triggers for this whole operation was the mass fraud by people from Bulgaria who netted a lot of benefits by gaming the system. They traveled to the Netherlands, applied for benefits and then went back to Bulgaria and used Dutch bank accounts and debit cards to get the cash. The tax office never wanted that to happen again and started this program to find fraudsters but ended up clas…

> Why do people need to receive hundreds of thousands of Euros for children daycare? It's not about "daycare", it is about assisting families in the (massive) expenses that raising a child incurs. Why? Because unlike the American pension system which is mostly backed by the stock market, European pension systems depend on young and healthy workers to pay the pensions of the current pensioner generation. Obviously thi…

> Why? Because unlike the American pension system which is mostly backed by the stock market, European pension systems depend on young and healthy workers to pay the pensions of the current pensioner generation.

Using investment returns to pay for retirement is no less dependent on young and healthy workers. Us retirees own the companies, working people work for them, and we skim the returns. It accomplishes the same thing but with less central planning. It's still vulnerable to demographic traps.

Re: Dutch scandal serves as a warning for Europe over risks of using algorithms

#143

Post by puszczyk »

wallaBBB wrote: post #4

By reading, seems that the algorithm is just a scapegoat used in the title. This is racial discriminations dating way back, purposely introduced in the algorithm, and supported for 6 years. > Having dual nationality was marked as a big risk indicator, as was a low income. >In 2020, Trouw and another Dutch news outlet, RTL Nieuws revealed that the tax authorities also kept secret blacklists of people for two decades,…

What I don't understand looking at the article is how

> “signals” of potential fraud

turned into 100k EUR fines. Shouldn't the "signal" only flag suspect transfers and start in-person investigation?

Or did they just slap the fines without any human due-process?

I guess this is only possible because it's an administrative fine, and not a criminal case, right?

Re: Dutch scandal serves as a warning for Europe over risks of using algorithms

#144

Post by Cederfjard »

tluyben2 wrote: post #130
falcolas wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least here in the US, even children have tax IDs. I don't think it would vanish completely, but it makes it a much smaller issue when all you have look for double-submitted tax IDs instead of running heuristics.

I think the unique ID system should be fixed (without damaging privacy); we have the technology to fix IDs to identify people and let them ID themselves or do KYC without the current fraude prone and error prone setup. I understand this is a big undertaking, at the start, but in the end, it will be easier for most people, harder or impossible for fraudsters and easier for the government. Indeed having a unique UUID a…

Systems similar to this exist. They’re not (all?) anonymous, however.

Every Swedish citizen and resident has a unique and dedicated number (date of birth followed by four digits), and you can use it in tandem with for example BankID (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BankID) to authenticate yourself almost everywhere.

It would be extraordinarily hard to make up UBI claims for non-existing family members and receive payouts in Sweden. You would first have to convince the tax agency to register the fake person in order to get a new personal number, either as a newborn or immigrant, which either way is obviously subject to controls. You’d then have to keep this up through various mandatory interactions with government agencies without getting found out. It would probably be much more effort (not to mention stress) than just working for the same money.

Re: Dutch scandal serves as a warning for Europe over risks of using algorithms

#146

Post by harvey9 »

orwin wrote: post #95
Kaotique wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you misunderstood me. I am not saying they don't deserve support. I am saying that the government can support people in a way that is not so bureaucratic. Pay the institutions like schools, daycare, etc directly and don't burden the parents with requesting benefits and sending around enormous amounts of money. The institutions can apply for government money for each child they have to take care of. And the pa…

This is why I really dislike social solutions that involves money. I understand that you have no choice but to use money in a developed economy (because if you just give services, it doesn't count toward GDP), but this is peak 'indicator became the target' dumbassery.

Who would give the services if there is no payment? Are you talking about a barter society?

Re: Dutch scandal serves as a warning for Europe over risks of using algorithms

#147

Post by mtts »

einpoklum wrote: post #120

I don't understand the article. Suppose they had an algorithm for computing a risk score. Ok, so someone is determined to have a "high risk score". That doesn't mean that they've done anything wrong; at most, it means prioritizing them for closer scrutiny. That could still be discriminatory (e.g. focus on Turkish/Moroccan immigrants), but in itself - it's not supposed to lose anyone their benefits. Also, the article…

High risk score means you’re under scrutiny. Once you’re under scrutiny every minor thing that goes wrong or is unclear is by default assumed to be fraud and you get slapped with (often outrageously high) fines, payable immediately. You can only appeal after the fact, so you’re drowning in debt even before the first judge looks at your case.

That is assuming a judge gets anywhere near your case. This often didn’t happen because access to the law is made extremely difficult in the Netherlands (on purpose). The people this affected mostly did not have the skills to find their way in the Dutch legal system so they were ruined.

All of this is by design, by the way: the system assumes ill will by default, spends an inordinate amount of resources on detecting it and punishes it severely all because being tough on fraud polls well.

Re: Dutch scandal serves as a warning for Europe over risks of using algorithms

#148

Post by vanderZwan »

Tozen wrote: post #136

This really isn't about "algorithms", so much as it is about xenophobia and ethnic discrimination. The "algorithm", is just another plausible deniability cover for institutionalized discrimination against various minorities and the poor who are least able to fight back. Those in charge, know exactly what they are doing when they create their "blacklists" and "targets". They know the names, they have the bias and prej…

> The "algorithm", is just another plausible deniability cover for institutionalized discrimination against various minorities and the poor who are least able to fight back.

What makes this extra infuriating is that even before these algorithms were implemented in the Netherlands there were already plenty of people warning us that this would happen if we ever would be so foolish to do so. I can only presume they feel a certain frustrated kinship with climate scientists right now

Re: Dutch scandal serves as a warning for Europe over risks of using algorithms

#149

Post by logifail »

hef19898 wrote: post #135
logifail wrote: post #122

> Having dual nationality was marked as a big risk indicator Dual nationality indeed has its ups and downs. FWIW, our children have dual nationality, and on top of that, are all bilingual. On enrolling them in their first school the school insisted on tweaking the enrollment data we'd submitted to list the locally-spoken language second, and so put the non-local language first, as "mother tongue" (and yes, that's exa…

How would they now? By no means those dual nationalities are centrally managed. And therw is no obligation to state a second cotizenship on any papers. Disclaimer: Dual citizenship kids in Europe.

> And therw is no obligation to state a second cotizenship on any papers

You're probably right re: citizenship but this is about language, how could one "hide" being bilingual, especially if we're talking about a young child?

(Even in kindergarten all my daughter's friends are 100% aware that she and I speak a language when we're communicating solely with each other that isn't the language my daughter uses the rest of the time in kindergarten.)

Re: Dutch scandal serves as a warning for Europe over risks of using algorithms

#150

Post by mtts »

BlargMcLarg wrote: post #111
vanderZwan wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on their username I would guess "being not-white in a country that is totally convinced it isn't racist but is actually seriously racist". Also, it's not discussed much but the Netherlands has a very serious "old boy network" problem where white douchebags who didn't achieve much during their studies except boozing with other white douchebags keep failing upwards. It's the reason why me and my mixed ethnicity b…

Mind you, literally anyone who doesn't fit this mentality in some way (ethnicity, sex, character, etc.) is quickly considered an outsider with problems getting in. You can be a white heterosexual native guy and still struggle because the Dutch mentality doesn't mesh with you personally. Very much because "boozing with other white douchebags" concerns all descriptors. It's why the Dutch "kan niet"-mentality is so prom…

Very much this. The Netherlands is essentially a frat house kept afloat by dangerously unregulated immigrant labor, a dwindling number of middle class professionals and tax laws that would be an embarrassment to all but the most unrepentant of tax havens.
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