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Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

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Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#141
post #114
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Nuclear canceled by the Green Party .. after Fukushima. Trading one tail risk for another. (Germany has oddly lagged in deploying renewables, though. Possibly due to lack of offshore sites, meaning that wind farms have to be deployed against the efforts of NIMBYs)

Surely Germany's a big enough (and sparsely-populated enough) country that wind farms can go somewhere without complaint?

It's an ongoing joke that a mandate to place wind farms 2km from populated areas left no space at for wind farms in that state.

It's not actually sparsely populated at all.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#142
post #10

It's nice to see Germany start working towards energy independence. I think it's a crucial factor for both national security and a faster migration to more environmentally friendly energy sources.

Where “energy independence” means that Germany becomes dependent on much more expensive LGN from the US. This may still be better than what Germany has now but it’s not independence.

It's a step in the right direction, isn't it? LNG can also be imported from other countries and, in the long run, gas dependence should be massively reduced once gas-powered heating is replaced by electronic heading via heat pumps or something like that.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gazprom attenpted to change owners and default the company. In that case the gas contracts would have been void including its negotiated prices (under currebt market value) and the currency in euro instead of rubbels.

> Gazprom attenpted to change owners and default the company. Is that illegal? I wonder about rule of law. We talk about this as sacrosanct here in the "West". It is funny that when push comes to shove (in my perception at least), we're quick to break the rules to get the outcome we want. When say a 3rd world country does something like this in response to a "Western" multinational's actions (perhaps a controversial…

There are additional rules for critical national infrastructure. The gas company didn't follow them and this gave the government the legal right to seize the business.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#144
post #72
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes I wonder if the Greens are actually funded by petrol companies because everything they do seems to benefit them in the end. In Switzerland the Greens are trying to be as dumb as the German ones.

Old people vote more. Old hippies vote harder. Hippies are impressionable and watched a lot of Hollywood movies like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Syndrome And more recently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_(miniseries) Jane Fonda is a sexy grandma who still got it, she stopped the war in Vietnam and got us in shape. With our powers combined, we are Captain Planet? We were elected to lead not to re…

I'm old enough to remember when Chernobyl was on the news, not a fictionalised version. The initial "discard all milk production across Europe" phase lasted a few weeks, but the last restrictions in the UK took 26 years to lift: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cumbria-18299228

(it's also been in the news recently as it was right in the middle of the Russian assault on Kyiv!)

The French nuclear mix is currently 58% : https://www.rte-france.com/en/eco2mix/power-generation-energ... because a large number of reactors are offline: https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/1549986/macron-france...

There are two problems with nuclear power:

- a "black swan" low probability risk of something really bad happening, despite everyone saying it can't happen, and poisoning the surrounding area

- it's expensive, takes a long time to build, and can develop expensive problems. Many of the French reactors are approaching the end of their 50 year design life.

That said, it was definitely a mistake for Germany to close plants without a specific safety risk.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gazprom attenpted to change owners and default the company. In that case the gas contracts would have been void including its negotiated prices (under currebt market value) and the currency in euro instead of rubbels.

> Gazprom attenpted to change owners and default the company. Is that illegal? I wonder about rule of law. We talk about this as sacrosanct here in the "West". It is funny that when push comes to shove (in my perception at least), we're quick to break the rules to get the outcome we want. When say a 3rd world country does something like this in response to a "Western" multinational's actions (perhaps a controversial…

That's correct, it depends a lot on the perspective. We justify this because it's critical infrastructure, which is a good enough reason to me, but if a 3rd world country would argue with critical infrastructure, the narrative in western countries would be very different (assuming it would lead to some conflict of interests - otherwise, sure fine!).

We definitely need to get rid of our double standards. All complaints about this from non-western countries are mostly correct.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#146
post #50
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, they got top minds on this. Top. Minds. Nuclear canceled by the Green Party and pre-March went all in on Russian oil and gas.

makes you think if Green Party is also financed by Russia...

Greens are not financed by Russia, this is publicly available information. Neither they did anything that could look like a support of Russian agenda.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#147
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To expand on this: much of the distribution infrastructure within Germany is owned by Gazprom. For example, there's a very large natural gas storage capacity within Germany, but a significant portion of that is owned by, you guessed it, Gazprom. There's broad consensus that, if all of the storage infrastructure were topped up, Germany would be able to make it through _next_ winter reasonably well, even if Russia stop…

> yet another strong indication that the invasion was a deliberate Russian aggression planned well in advance. Are there people out there who have doubts about this? Regardless of any opinions on the rationale behind it, it's very clearly something that was planned in advance. I didn't think that was something that was up for debate.

How could you not plan an invasion in advance? This is easily at least a year of planning just on the entirely practical side of things like how to get enough units and hardware there.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#148
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we can import it from france and we have hydro, why even care about the nuclear-waste and all the negative sides of it. https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/swiss-get-75--of-power-from-ren...

Nuclear Power - Bad from inside Switzerland, Okie Dokie from France. Their reactor in Bugey is like 200km from the one you're shutting down early. Man.. it would sure be funny if France elected some eccentric far right character for additional excitement.

>Okie Dokie for France.

Yes why not? They take the risk, we pay them for.

>eccentric far right character for additional excitement.

Is the far right not happy making money?

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#149
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine wasn’t armed with hi-tech weaponry until Russia started invading in 2014 and then continued being a bad actor which culminated in January/February 2022 delivery of said weapons at the last second. NATO expansion is a convenient excuse but fails for two reasons: 1. Baltics are closer to Moscow than Ukraine and right on the border. 2. It is widely acknowledged that the primary driver for Putin is not NATO expan…

1. The Baltics joined NATO when Russia was still in disarray and aren't as important strategically. Russia tried to join NATO itself after that but was rebuffed. 2. This was primarily for domestic consumption and the West picked it up in February/March together with the notion that Putin had gone mad. Hardly anyone talks about either of these theories any longer.

> Russia tried to join NATO itself after that but was rebuffed.

Yes but it's not that simple. First, do you trust Russia in NATO? Given the nefarious things Russia has done over the last 30 years, you can't trust this on the face of it. It would be a very Russian thing to do. By accounts that I've read (open to other readings here) Russia wanted to join in a privileged position as well, versus as "just another country" and wanted to be fast-tracked and so forth.

> The Baltics joined NATO when Russia was still in disarray and aren't as important strategically.

I don't find any sympathy with the disarray argument. That just says "these countries joined NATO when Russia couldn't do anything about it". Your point about strategic importance, though, is well taken. Ukraine is strategically important for many reasons. Some/one of which is that it can undermine Russia's stranglehold on European gas imports.

> This was primarily for domestic consumption and the West picked it up in February/March together with the notion that Putin had gone mad. Hardly anyone talks about either of these theories any longer.

Agreed. I think the simple case is simply that Putin believe(s)(d) that he had enough negotiating power against NATO countries to be able to stop them from inflicting serious damage on Russia after invading Ukraine, and also that because Ukraine (in Putin's words) isn't a state, the fiction would simply collapse once Russia arrived. We don't do a great job and assume that our incentives are the same as someone else's. In this case Putin couldn't give a crap less about dead people and economic destruction. He cares about The Historical Unity of Russians and Ukraine. Perhaps at a much higher cost than we are willing to endure.

Re: Germany has seized control of Gazprom Germania

#150
post #138

They sold the company to new owners on Friday who then tried to liquidate it. Gazprom Germania is the counterpart to Gas dealers and utilities. It then has an intra-company agreement with Gazprom Russia. If they had liquidated, those contracts would have been gone and the Gas dealers & utilities would have had to renegotiate new contracts with Gazprom Russia. This would have allowed them to require payments in Rubles…

From what I've read, the contracts between Gazprom Germany and Gazprom Export (on the Russian side) do not have a fixed settlement currency. > This would have allowed them to require payments in Rubles instead of Euros "allowed" is a funny word - this situation is way past a point where cross-border contracts on either side hold any legal value. How are you going to hold anyone accountable for breach of contract?

One side does it with assassination.
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