Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends • Hacker News Board

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#141

Post by sAbakumoff » Sat, Mar 05, 2022, 4:51 PM UTC

jmyeet wrote: post #122

Russia is seizing foreign currency reserves (effectively, by forcing conversion to the ruble) held by average Russian citizens. These sanctions are going to be a bad time for them. There are no military options so what else can you do? Still, we shouldn't forget that sanctions are a form of collective punishment that disproportionately affect average citizens. My faint glimmer of hope here is that the West finally ta…

>> My faint glimmer of hope here is that the West finally takes actions to stop enabling oligarchs and they can start with denying them real estate in Western urban centers

Recently, Italy seized real estate and other properties of Russian oligarchs and their lackeys, worth ~$150M.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#142

Post by asats » Sat, Mar 05, 2022, 4:52 PM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #124

hutzlibu wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still do not see the logic of punishing people who left russia - as they obviously do not support the war. If they stay and get drafted to fight in the war for real, how does this help? And sure, they could try to organize revolts - but would you? That is extremly dangerous and a million times easier said than done. Fleeing the country is a strong peaceful revolt on the other hand. Helping those people will mean he…

>Fleeing the country is a strong peaceful revolt on the other hand No, it just ensures that the only people left in Russia are the ones who support Putin. And like I said, Ukrainians have no choice. Why should Russians? As another poster said, even autocracies need a certain level of support to operate. It's not fair to punish Russians but their country is literally waging a full scale war while threatening the west…

Right, if you were in power people fleeing over the berlin wall would have been shot from both sides, not just by the soviets. Cause they should have stayed inside and overthrown the soviet government. Same goes for north koreans, shoot them and send them back, let them fight the government.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#143

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Mar 05, 2022, 4:52 PM UTC

Mikeb85 wrote: post #37

bsedlm wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a lot of people seem ok with punishing Russian individuals for the actions of the government. maybe these people have grown in better functioning democracies (unlike Russia or my own country) so they act as if the people were well represented by their governments; unlike reality for most countries with a serious corruption problem.

Maybe because Ukrainian men don't have the choice to flee. It's not like Russians are moving away during peaceful times. It's a full on war in which one party is bombing the civilians of a democratic country, threatening NATO with nuclear war and Russians are the only ones who can actually stop it.

[deleted]

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#144

Post by jlokier » Sat, Mar 05, 2022, 4:53 PM UTC

vbezhenar wrote: post #45

jacquesm wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seems like most of the disinformation is currently coming from the NATO/Ukraine side. Sure... /s That's probably why the West has just enacted a law that whoever talks about the war in Ukraine in terms of war will face all kinds of trouble. Oh, wait. Really, you can't make this stuff up, do you actually believe that people on HN will read what you say and then dutifully turn to Pravda for their news from now on?

Quoted post unavailable.

> West countries have similar laws

Recent Russian law: 15 years imprisonment for protesting or even just calling the war a war.

Western countries have nothing of that scale for such general offences. Neither in law nor in culture.

The nearest things I can think of are holocaust or genocide denial laws, and protest-limiting powers. There are some similarities, but also very significant differences, so I think you are using the fallacy of false equivalence in your argument: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#145

Post by jacquesm » Sat, Mar 05, 2022, 4:54 PM UTC

vbezhenar wrote: post #127

jacquesm wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> West countries have similar laws. Sorry, but no, we don't. > They even have an entire culture: Cancel Culture. You are either unaware of what cancel culture means or you are changing the subject. > While I hate every discrimination of speech freedom, you can't paint Russia as something unique, West is an example they follow. I think the repression of the free media in Russia is quite uniquely all it's own. It's the…

> Sorry, but no, we don't. https://www.praguemorning.cz/expressing-support-for-russia-o... https://spravy.rtvs.sk/2022/02/za-podporu-vojnovej-propagand... I don't see any difference. > You are either unaware of what cancel culture means or you are changing the subject. Of course I'm aware what does it means. I'm also aware of "deplatforming" and other ways to silence unpleasing speech. Which could be described as a s…

> I don't see any difference.

I suspect that may be on your end.

> I'm also aware of "deplatforming" and other ways to silence unpleasing speech. Which could be described as a single word: censorship.

Well, you're still speaking, aren't you?

> I could say that western agents killed him. It's just as likely.

Sorry, but you are not arguing in good faith here.

It's funny because for sure you will see that as confirmation of your claims of censorship but all you seem to want to do is to project the weirdest kind of positions that have no support in reality and I really can't be bothered to debate if that's the case.

Not all speech is worth engaging.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#146

Post by nuccy » Sat, Mar 05, 2022, 4:54 PM UTC

therusskiy wrote: post #6

I managed to escape the country yesterday, had to flight to Egypt of all places, because ALL (even business) tickets were sold out. The recent news is that starting March 6 all international flights are suspended, the trap has closed. The disheartening thing is that even if you never supported Putin, other countries treat you as enemy. I am at Georgia now and banks refuse to open bank accounts to Russians, and I need…

[disclaimer: Ukrainian here]

> Older generation (who are pro-Russian) suggested being careful around young people as they may be hostile to Russians, even those who are running away from Putin

Of course, instead of even attempting to change your country, where there is no war on its territory, you flee. Why should they be kind to you?

> The disheartening thing is that even if you never supported Putin, other countries treat you as enemy.

Silence equals support. Молчание - знак согласия. (A popular russian saying).

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#147

Post by formvoltron » Sat, Mar 05, 2022, 4:54 PM UTC

tasha0663 wrote: post #104

formvoltron wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

This attitude doesn't square with the dense bureaucracy, unavoidable surveillance, and complete monopoly on violence that modern nations hold. Especially in a place like Russia, where "organizing" is nearly impossible because opposition leaders have a bad habit of accidentally eating plutonium and nerve agents.

If people want to be corralled like sheep, then those corralling them will only be encouraged to do more.

Doing nothing as a Russian means. 1. Being OK with Russians randomly sending missiles into apartment buildings in Ukraine 2. Being OK with wheat prices jumping 50 or 100% causing food shortages and starvation around the world 3. Possible nuclear war.

Whereas if 1 or 2 million Muskovites simply walk downtown and shake their keys, then almost certainly almost none of them would have any problem at all.

Maybe just the football fans of Moscow could do this? Otherwise, your team will only be playing Kyrgyzstan and Uzbekistan for a while.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#148

Post by drakonka » Sat, Mar 05, 2022, 4:54 PM UTC

therusskiy wrote: post #136

drakonka wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It did turn into a bloodbath at Euromaidan, but the people still came out, for months, and fought to change a corrupt regime that lied to them, as they have in many other countries in the past. Russians are not helpless. The main argument when this gets brought up seems to be that it's going to be hard and people will get hurt. Of course Putin isn't going to just throw up his hands and say "Ok guys, you win, I'm out"…

Putin was shaken up by Euromaidan and been preparing so it doesn't happen to him ever since. Ukraine 2014 != Russia 2022. Back then Ukraine even had free speech.

I apologize in advance for some emotion that'll come out in the rest of this comment, but I feel the need to say it.

I wish Russian people would then stop telling me all about how most Russians are against Putin and hate him, and then act completely helpless at the thought of doing anything about it. They are just empty words, then, because they're followed by plenty of excuses for inaction. My grandfather is spending another war hiding from bombs in a basement, but Russian people get to catch trains to Finland while telling us platitudes about how "most" of them are _so_ against Putin.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#149

Post by Mikeb85 » Sat, Mar 05, 2022, 4:55 PM UTC

asats wrote: post #142

Mikeb85 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Fleeing the country is a strong peaceful revolt on the other hand No, it just ensures that the only people left in Russia are the ones who support Putin. And like I said, Ukrainians have no choice. Why should Russians? As another poster said, even autocracies need a certain level of support to operate. It's not fair to punish Russians but their country is literally waging a full scale war while threatening the west…

Right, if you were in power people fleeing over the berlin wall would have been shot from both sides, not just by the soviets. Cause they should have stayed inside and overthrown the soviet government. Same goes for north koreans, shoot them and send them back, let them fight the government.

The Soviet Union was ended from within... Thanks for proving my point.

Re: Russians are trying to flee – data from Google Trends

#150

Post by MattGaiser » Sat, Mar 05, 2022, 4:55 PM UTC

mkl95 wrote: post #90

There's nothing surprising about it. There is at least one recent, well documented case of mass emigration due to the economic collapse of an authoritarian regime. Millions of people have left Venezuela since the late 2000s [1]. Considering Russia is barely richer than Spain whilst having 3x the population and the fact it's about to get much worse, I would expect millions of Russians to leave in the next few years. […

And consider throughout history what people have done when their government got more authoritarian and their nation's economy collapsed. Or just when the latter happens.

I am quite intrigued at those who doubt this of all stories.