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Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

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Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#141

Post by gfosco »

grey-area wrote: post #53
gfosco wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're too cynical, but we can have our own takes. From what I was able to piece together, Russia isn't the one starting this conflict, in action. It's NATO aligned countries trying to get Ukraine to join NATO. Russia made it very clear, that ain't happening and they'll go to war over it. So who's still agitating for war? The zero-evidence claims that Russia was about to invade sure look like pure propa…

Russia has already invaded Ukraine, with special forces and proxy forces, in Donetsk and in Crimea, indeed Putin claims Ukrainians and Russians are the same people. The forces they support have even committed war crimes like downing a civilian jet and killing hundreds and in recent days shelling civilian villages. While it seems to be fashionable to make excuses for a murderous dictator like Putin, Putin’s intentions…

You're being hyperbolic... I am merely pointing out this doesn't appear to be unprovoked. This place should be a little more open-minded than an MSNBC panel.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#142

Post by [deleted] »

irthomasthomas wrote: post #131
gus_massa wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nuclear winter is apparently not so extreme as initially thought https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_winter#Criticism_and_d... Anyway, it would be nice to not try it. [I'm not in a bunker, but in case of a global thermonuclear war I hope everyone forgets to nuke Argentina.]

How many times have they run the experiment of detonating ~10,000 atom bombs at once?

[deleted]

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#143

Post by Koshkin »

dragonwriter wrote: post #113
VictorPath wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia annexed Crimea The Russian military was in the Crimea back when redcoats were stationed in New York City, and has been in the Crimea ever since.

> The Russian military was in the Crimea back when redcoats were stationed in New York City, and has been in the Crimea ever since. No, it hasn't. From the creation of Soviet Ukraine in 1919 through 2014, Russia neither controlled nor pretended to control Crimea (except for a 9 year period from 1945-1954), which it acknowledged was its own entity (prior to 1945) or part of Ukraine (after 1954). (People sometimes equa…

Crimea was part of Russia until about sixty year ago.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#145

Post by ivan_gammel »

unclebucknasty wrote: post #15
daniel-cussen wrote: post #8

So to begin with, fact, Putin is a better chess player than Biden. You might think, oh it's just a board game, computers are better at it. You could say that. Apparently the strategy right now is get right next to the border of Ukraine and do military exercises, then watch as NATO loses its shit with every passing second.

So, Russia takes on a war posture. NATO naturally responds rather predictably, then Russia just pulls its troops back? What, exactly, is the strategic advantage there?

They try to make a point by demonstrating what is NATO expansion to them. Their only goal is to reduce NATO presence, not to expand anywhere. By creating a menace without actual invasion they try to discredit US government which makes failing predictions one after other and shifting public opinion, so that NATO will be forced to negotiate a number of treaties on favorable conditions. After all, NATO did seem to promise non-expansion as recently found archive document shows.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#146

Post by Eddy_Viscosity2 »

The information war on this is already very hot. Diametrically opposed viewpoints coming from each side.

US: The russians are about to invade.

Russia: No we aren't.

Honestly, as someone on the outside of this I really have no idea what to believe. Is Putin just putting up a show of force but not actually going to pull the trigger, or is this the real deal preps for imminent invasion?

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#147

Post by gfosco »

throwaway6734 wrote: post #23
gfosco wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you're too cynical, but we can have our own takes. From what I was able to piece together, Russia isn't the one starting this conflict, in action. It's NATO aligned countries trying to get Ukraine to join NATO. Russia made it very clear, that ain't happening and they'll go to war over it. So who's still agitating for war? The zero-evidence claims that Russia was about to invade sure look like pure propa…

>Russia isn't the one starting this conflict >Russia made it very clear, that ain't happening and they'll go to war over it. Which one is it? >The zero-evidence claims that Russia was about to invade sure look like pure propaganda from the same people who are thirsty for it. The massive troop build up along Ukraine's border and in Belarus? You're spreading Russian propaganda.

Look I think you're missing the point. Chew on it for a bit, don't respond half-cocked.

You: I want do to X.

B: If you do X, I will do Y.

You can try to convince B not to do Y if you do X...

but if B is prepared to do Y, and is showing you he's prepared to do Y...

and you can't convince him not to...

then you have to consider, that if you continue trying to do X, that You are the one agitating.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#148

Post by fmajid »

sudosysgen wrote: post #97
rosndo wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Basically, he thinks the west precipitated the crisis by pushing to have Ukraine join NATO This is a downright lie. Anyone who follows NATO knows that there has been very little desire to allow Ukraine to join.

It's really not. NATO doesn't want Ukraine now that Russia is serious about opposition, but in the 2006-2009 the US was fighting really hard for Ukraine to join NATO despite opposition by France and Germany. Eventually Ukraine had a change of mind, but not before NATO formally stated Ukraine was welcome. The move away from NATO/EU ambitions was unpopular domestically in Ukraine and led to Euromaidan, after which it t…

The US is not the same thing as NATO, even if it is the leading country in it.

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#149

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

VictorPath wrote: post #136
disgruntledphd2 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah now, by that logic it would be acceptable for the British government to invade and occupy Ireland, India, and much of the rest of the world. By which I mean, historical presence in an area tells us little about the legitimacy of current day activities. And even then, Crimea was a terrible thing, but it made strategic sense (the russian fleet base is there). I don't see any real strategic benefit for Russia with in…

> British government to invade and occupy Ireland The British government does occupy Ireland, its military is stationed in Thiepval and Holywood. The last all-island democratic vote in Ireland was the second Dáil, which voted for the island to separate from the UK. A century on, British troops, who have been on a bloody campaign in Ireland from Drogheda to Bloody Sunday and on, still occupy Ireland.

> The British government does occupy Ireland, its military is stationed in Thiepval and Holywood.

Are you from Ireland? Because I am, and this is an absolutely ludicrous reading of the situation.

The British and Irish governments partitioned Ireland, for a bunch of reasons 100 years ago. If you look at what people in the North of ireland (still part of the UK want), most of them want to remain as they are (which is fine, even if I personally would prefer the island of Ireland to be one nation again).

> The last all-island democratic vote in Ireland was the second Dáil, which voted for the island to separate from the UK. A century on, British troops, who have been on a bloody campaign in Ireland from Drogheda to Bloody Sunday and on, still occupy Ireland.

The last all ireland vote occurred in 1998, to ratify the Good Friday agreement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Northern_Ireland_Good_Fri...

While I'm sure that tensions run high in the Russian/Central/Eastern Europe part of the world with respect to Ukraine, dragging in inflammatory propaganda from other parts of the world (that you clearly know very little about) is incredibly unhelpful, and quite frankly rather offensive to people who have to live with it.

But, I also mentioned India in my comment. By your OP, it appears legitimate for the British to invade India right now. Do you agree or disagree with this statement, and why or why not?

Re: Why Vladimir Putin and his entourage want war

#150

Post by sudosysgen »

fmajid wrote: post #148
sudosysgen wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really not. NATO doesn't want Ukraine now that Russia is serious about opposition, but in the 2006-2009 the US was fighting really hard for Ukraine to join NATO despite opposition by France and Germany. Eventually Ukraine had a change of mind, but not before NATO formally stated Ukraine was welcome. The move away from NATO/EU ambitions was unpopular domestically in Ukraine and led to Euromaidan, after which it t…

The US is not the same thing as NATO, even if it is the leading country in it.

The US exerted enough pressure over NATO that it's policy became NATO policy in that case.
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