Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software • Hacker News Board

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#141

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:03 PM UTC

hunter-gatherer wrote: post #97

fleddr wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or...updates nobody asked for. Quite a few casual users might be perfectly happy with Office 2003, or Adobe PS6, as anything after that they don't need. And not just that, they may not want the UI to be revamped every 2 months. The option to just have stable, working software is increasingly taken away. Not to mention the anti competitive nature of these two parties. They can just bundle an additional app in their su…

Your point needs more attention IMO. Most updates for most software don't add usability or convenience for the end user. The way conversational rhetoric with my family and friends seems to have transitioned from "wow, these computers are cool! This will really help with x" to complete frustration.

Jonathan Blow posted something a while back I thought was interesting: type "frustrating" into Google image search. Notice anything about the results?

https://www.google.com/search?q=frustrating&tbm=isch

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#142

Post by Asafp » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:10 PM UTC

I think that pricing based on usage will be a positive step - you only pay for what you use, it ties your spending on your incomes as well. Not sure if its applicable for consumer products.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#143

Post by regitempus » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:11 PM UTC

Don’t mind apps charging subscriptions per se — business models are good. Annoying when I buy special-purpose hardware though, and it requires a recurring subscription to use the software features it comes with. See Tesla Autopilot, Eight Sleep mattress, Hero pill machine, etc. Two different things imo and the latter is abusive.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#144

Post by jtbayly » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:11 PM UTC

tjoff wrote: post #90

toyg wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's not really about free software; it's about paying salaries. Recurring expenses inevitably result in business models optimized for recurring revenues. That was always the case; it just so happened that the expansion of industrial production of goods was so vast for so long, that this was kinda hidden (and it was hard to justify - there are only so many widgets you can continuously supply to customers). Now…

Recurring expenses very often isn't necessary though. For software the initial costs are big, but after that it can be pretty low maintenance or at least costing much less to develop new features when the foundation is set. When you start to think about recurring expenses that's when you have to find a way to justify those expenses. And that is usually by adding bloat and unnecessary features that those that already…

For example, 1Password.

I’m happy to pay for a new version if my current version stops working. OS or browser update broke the app? I’ll pay for the new version.

But they are trying to force me to pay every month, therefore they remove my ability to use the app at all unless I pay for their cloud storage which I neither need nor want.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#145

Post by judge2020 » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:12 PM UTC

pimterry wrote: post #40

I don't think this is fundamentally about subscriptions. They're a different business model, but there are positives too: for example they align what users pay far more closely with the value they get from a product. If you use a tool for one month, you pay a small amount, if you use it every month for years you pay more. In the old world, if you wanted to use purchase-once software just once, then you had to pay far…

Subscription management would be nice, but it’s a bit more complicated than simply blocking transactions; just because a tx doesn’t go through doesn’t mean you opted not to continue with the service, it just means the service provider was unable to collect on your payment. For new tech companies like Netflix, a lapsed subscription goes away easily since it’s prorated so they just stop providing you service, but many companies take the hostile route and send any lapsed subscriptions to collections without blocking access to their services.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#146

Post by chrisan » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:13 PM UTC

MerelyMortal wrote: post #72

baxtr wrote: post #39

I think it is fair to complain about user-hostile and scammy companies. However, I strongly believe selling software with a one-time fee was the problem in the first place. An ongoing service requires ongoing efforts to keep it stable, secure and modern. Just like you pay for housing on a monthly, recurring basis. It's the same with software. btw: the oldest subscription models are insurances. No one is complaining a…

A lot of software doesn't have to be a "service", such as Photoshop. Photoshop doesn't need to be connected to the internet and receive constant updates. There was never an issue with Photoshop versions having one-time fees.

You also don't _need_ photoshop at all. Just speak with your wallet. No company as large as Adobe is going to be listening to comments online.

It's like people complaining about 1000+ dollar phones, you don't need to buy that, and the company isn't going to listen to complaints.

Most companies listen to the market only.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#147

Post by jtbayly » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:13 PM UTC

rodet wrote: post #95

tjoff wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recurring expenses very often isn't necessary though. For software the initial costs are big, but after that it can be pretty low maintenance or at least costing much less to develop new features when the foundation is set. When you start to think about recurring expenses that's when you have to find a way to justify those expenses. And that is usually by adding bloat and unnecessary features that those that already…

In the case of local software, I agree. But most users expect connected services nowadays, which mean recurring costs for the developers as well in many cases.

What do you mean by “connected services”? If that’s just a code word for cloud storage, then no, thank you. I’ve got cloud storage, and I don’t need yours. You’re just trying to justify charging me every month.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#148

Post by justsomehnguy » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:14 PM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #64

Dump these sorts of products and use FOSS replacements instead, preferably ones licensed under the AGPL so that SaaS-ification doesn't take us right back to where we are now.

Okay, I'll bite:

And ten years later, when all developers who did the development for these FOSS products are only found on a sheep farms (because duh, somehow FOSS projects developed in your free time doesn't pay for a 3 bedroom house in SF and nobody bothers to pay for a free (as in beer) *GPL products and all Subscription companies are bankrupt because everyone went *GPL), who would develop these FOSS replacements instead?

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#149

Post by willis936 » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:14 PM UTC

MobileVet wrote: post #128

coldtea wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This sort of began when we all got the impression that software should be free, or that we pay a low price once and get indefinite free upgrades. Blame the victim? We din't get any impression, as we don't set the prices. The companies set those prices. For example Adobe customers never got or set any impression that "software should be free/low price". They paid 100s to 1000s of dollars for each update or package r…

> We don't want "super cheap products", we want reasonably priced products we own after we buy. I am afraid the ‘we’ here isn’t nearly as large a demographic as you think it is. If it was, we wouldn’t see the mass of advertising supported products we see. Mainstream consumers do want free / cheap products, despite the many caveats associated with them and the market has adjusted to give them that. The other follow up…

Nobody asked for subscriptions. Nobody likes them. People prefer free and second to that a one-time payment model. Maybe that payment only includes a year of patches, but people still prefer it.

Companies prefer subscriptions because it maximizes revenue. It's as simple as that. Zero sum game between company and consumer.

Re: Tell HN: A Conversation Needs to Be Had over Subscription Software

#150

Post by judge2020 » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 1:15 PM UTC

vasco wrote: post #26

One thing that I think is usually absent from this is the fact that most copyleft licenses are being interpreted by the industry has having a SaaS loophole[1][2], which makes the economics of developing software much more attractive. On one hand you get to use all GPL'ed code for free, so your developers have to build much less things in house, whereas you also exploit the economics of rent vs sell as other commenter…

It’s less of a loophole and more of a way to make sure software doesn’t collapse overnight, given you’d have to comply with the GPL for using libc or parts of the Linux kernel.