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Motorists have been stranded on a major interstate in Virginia since last night

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Re: Motorists have been stranded on a major interstate in Virginia since last night

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why in the world would "get more people driving" be a measure of success? For industries that directly benefit from that, sure, but I can't imagine how that could be a societal goal.

Transportation is directly related to how much your local cities are doing. When you order goods from Amazon, that gets delivered to you. It might be a road, sea, rail, or plane, but its transportation. The more of packages ordered / delivered, the more things are happening in the city. The more jobs being created, the more people will need to transport to-and-from work. The more homes built, the more transportation…

Yes, but if you reduced the average amount of time stuck in traffic while the total number and distance of trips remained the same, you certainly wouldn't say that your local city is doing worse. Moreover, if you replaced some car trips with other ways of transporting the same person or freight, that certainly isn't a loss for your local city simply because the number of people driving decreased.

Re: Motorists have been stranded on a major interstate in Virginia since last night

#142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood how inducing demand doesn't count as success. That means people want to use the road, doesn't it? It's almost like saying that releasing new software doesn't do anything to help users, because it increases the demand for software by the virtue of its own utility more than it reduces the demand for software by keeping people busy.

If the point of adding lanes is to reduce delays, and induced demand prevents that, you have failed in the task.

That means you didn't add enough lanes. You need to get ahead of induced demand, otherwise you city isn't meeting the needs of the people who live there. If you don't want to have many places you can reach in a reasonable amount of time can you can move to a rural area. The point of cities is to give people options to reach lots of places quickly. Get busying being a good city.

Note, it can be better to add transit other than lanes of road. Even though I said add lanes, adding lanes is but one possible solution. Good transit may well be better. Figure out how to make your city serve the people who want to get around.

Re: Motorists have been stranded on a major interstate in Virginia since last night

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood how inducing demand doesn't count as success. That means people want to use the road, doesn't it? It's almost like saying that releasing new software doesn't do anything to help users, because it increases the demand for software by the virtue of its own utility more than it reduces the demand for software by keeping people busy.

Yeah, they're shifting the goal posts. Here in city (Seattle) most people drive because transit tends to be spotty and slow for most people. So, what's the solution? Make driving worse of course. Speedbumps everywhere . Change 4-lane roads to 2-lanes. Remove parking. Lower speed limits to absurd levels. Make through streets dead ends. Transit still mostly sucks, but now driving sucks too. Success! I love transit and…

This is a really good point, but I also want to bring up a (small) counterargument:

I live in Denver, CO. Cars basically make it impossible to walk around most of the city, even in the more residential areas. Walking is an essential part of the public transit/non-car transportation experience because essentially everyone has to walk a few blocks from a bus stop, train station, bike rack, etc. to complete their trip on both ends. If walking those few blocks is unpleasant, unsafe, or impossible, people will (reasonably) prefer cars.

Unfortunately, car and pedestrian traffic are at odds in most cities. Situations that seem better for cars (turning lanes, right-on-red, faster speed limits, street parking) often make life hell for pedestrians who try to cross the road. Or make life very, very noisy for pedestrians who need to walk or live or work near those roads.

I agree wholeheartedly that we can't just make driving suck to encourage more people to walk or take public transit. But there are aspects of driving that need to be sacrificed to make public transit better. A great example: changing 4-lane roads to 2-lane roads -- if you can introduce a bike lane, bus lane, or both, those methods of transportation become significantly faster, safer, and better. Biking is basically a non-starter without lanes; busses can be so slow as to be not worth using when they get stuck in normal traffic. The same argument applies to parking removal -- instead of using an entire effective lane of traffic for parked cars, we can dedicate it to bikes or buses.

Lowering the speed limit reduces noise at street level, makes streets safer to cross for pedestrians, and allows bikes to peacefully coexist with cars in an environment where you don't need to go that fast anyway.

It would be interesting to hear what holds you back from using buses, walking, or bikes instead of your car to get around town. In Denver, the main issues I encounter are:

- bike theft

- literal crazy people shouting at me on buses/trains

- drivers who park/stop in crosswalks, or try to kill me on my bicycle

- the bus network is extremely slow to get around town

I think there's a fair argument that we should focus on solving these problems first, before we degrade car traffic. Bike theft is a really bike one in Seattle, too, iirc, and a huge blocker for folks trying to switch away from cars. But eventually you need to degrade car traffic to make public transit as good as it can be.

Re: Motorists have been stranded on a major interstate in Virginia since last night

#145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the metric people care about is traffic on the roads, not how many motorists are able to use the road in a given day. The Big Dig by this metric was a resounding success in Boston, able to dramatically scale up the amount of commuters in and out of the city, but driving still absolutely sucks because of traffic. To the person on the road, the Big Dig solved nothing. Parent comment is saying the only way to sc…

If the metric was really traffic, then that could easily be solved on any road by only allowing even-numbered license numbers to drive on even-numbered days, and vice-versa. If that's an absurd solution, then traffic severity is not the only metric.

I don't think anyone is claiming that is literally the only metric, because if it were, you could also just ban driving completely, or kill a bunch of people, etc.

Re: Motorists have been stranded on a major interstate in Virginia since last night

#146
I95 in that section is only 3 lanes, when it should have been upgraded to 4 many years ago. Instead, they focused on adding 2 HOV lanes which change direction mid day. They could have added 3 lanes in EACH direction (6 total) given the space required for the HOV, and spent less money doing it.

In addition, NIMBY cancelled the eastern bypass (upgrade of US 301 to I97), which would have allowed interstate traffic to bypass this section of I95. So there is really only one major trunk route in this area. You have to go a couple of hours west to get to I81.

So, they essentially have 8 lanes worth of traffic trying to share 3 lanes. And they have both interstate and commuter traffic on the same route.

Many commuters have adapted as best they can to the situation (look up "slug lines", HOV, and a few other things). That plus rail is all maxed out. They need more roads and lanes.

Re: Motorists have been stranded on a major interstate in Virginia since last night

#147
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in Northern VA. Public transit here is a solution looking for a problem. The job centers and commercial are too spread out for public transit to make any sense. Most of the population and jobs in the DC metro area aren’t in DC but spread around in Tysons, Loudoun, Reston, Arlington, Bethesda, etc. The state spent billions building the Silver line out to Tysons, Reston, and Loudoun, and ridership was disappo…

> But when the jobs are spread out all over the spokes, that model breaks down. So don't spread the jobs out all over the spokes? Is some urban planning really hard to do here? > Rail transit is an anachronism, best suited for the 1950s when life involved a woman staying home with the kids while dad took the train into the city for work. That isn't true at all in much of the world. Rail transit still works in many no…

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Re: Motorists have been stranded on a major interstate in Virginia since last night

#148
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in Northern VA. Public transit here is a solution looking for a problem. The job centers and commercial are too spread out for public transit to make any sense. Most of the population and jobs in the DC metro area aren’t in DC but spread around in Tysons, Loudoun, Reston, Arlington, Bethesda, etc. The state spent billions building the Silver line out to Tysons, Reston, and Loudoun, and ridership was disappo…

> But when the jobs are spread out all over the spokes, that model breaks down. So don't spread the jobs out all over the spokes? Is some urban planning really hard to do here? > Rail transit is an anachronism, best suited for the 1950s when life involved a woman staying home with the kids while dad took the train into the city for work. That isn't true at all in much of the world. Rail transit still works in many no…

Yes, it's hard to literally relocate hundreds of thousands of jobs according to some urban planners dreams. We aren't talking about intra city planning, but about state wide job markets. I guess Canada is dysfunctional too because there is absolutely no way to get rail service working beyond the big cities. Maybe it has something to do with north America not being Europe so trying to just force a European model here is a pure pipe dream.

Again, not talking about public transit in cities (which is amazing and should be scaled up) but about intercity/state/province transport. The distances, and spread are just not comparable to almost anywhere else in the world and you can't just magically make everyone move.

Re: Motorists have been stranded on a major interstate in Virginia since last night

#149
My mom drove the ~120 miles from Northern VA to Richmond yesterday, leaving around 3pm. This trip takes 2 hours on a good day, and has taken me 4+. It took her SEVEN HOURS. She ended up taking "back roads", had to backtrack several times, and eventually came into Richmond on I-64 from the west.

Re: Motorists have been stranded on a major interstate in Virginia since last night

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not well, the heater is a major drain. If you stop the heater, the batteries get cold and perform significantly worse.

A heat pump system (such as in a Tesla Model Y or a Kia Niro) is significantly more efficient than a plain electric heater, though I haven't seen any hard numbers for cars with that equipment in winter weather.

Doesn't Tesla recommend that users use the heat as little as possible, and use the seat warmers instead, to conserve battery? Or has that changed in more recent models?
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