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The Darker Side of Aaron Swartz (2013)

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141–150 of 175 posts

Re: The Darker Side of Aaron Swartz (2013)

#141
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While you make very valid points about plea deals in general, I don’t think they apply in this specific case. Swartz was very rich, and well represented. He also actually did the thing in question, and demonstrated consciousness of guilt. It’s okay for guilty people to be offered plea deals. It’s actually probably in their best interest sometimes.

> He also actually did the thing in question, and demonstrated consciousness of guilt. He did a thing, that doesn't mean that thing qualified as a felony, or even a crime. It certainly did not merit 50 years in prison. > It’s okay for guilty people to be offered plea deals. It’s actually probably in their best interest sometimes. It is simply not OK to threaten people with penalties that are well more than an order o…

I get the sense that you are channeling a general distrust of the system into this specific case. I will say I’m in agreement with your points in a general sense.

But as far as this case goes, I’m not sure. The alleged crime is a very technical one. The facts are all recorded and they paint a clear picture. The only question is how they apply to the law and whether or not they raise to the level of a crime.

That’s the job of a jury. They will receive a document with a list of charges, and the prosecution will lay out a very clear roadmap as to how each element of their case maps to the elements of the relevant statutes being charged.

Since this is a very technical crime, most of the evidence would be document-based and very convincing to a jury. It’s hard to create reasonable doubt in such document-heavy cases. So the only question will be how many charges can the prosecutor make the facts fit. That’s where these “50 years” claims come in, by stacking charge after charge in serial.

But importantly, neither the prosecutor nor the jury decide the sentence. That’s the job of the judge under the sentencing guidelines. This is what makes those “50 years” claim of the prosecutor bogus, and what any well-represented individual should understand.

I think Swartz did understand that because he opted to go to trial.

I get that people want there to be a clear moral story here. One perspective is that Swartz was a child prodigy, a beloved activist, someone who challenged the system, and then succumbed to pressure when it bore down on him with the full weight of the federal government.

But it’s not as clean as that. On the other hand he was a well connected, high net worth individual who repeatedly flaunted the system, and thought he would never face consequences. In my opinion, that’s the profile of someone ripe for heavy handed prosecution.

I am sympathetic to both perspectives.

Re: The Darker Side of Aaron Swartz (2013)

#142
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you stopped reading before the last paragraph of my comment. Or, really, one of the first ones, because, again: the prosecutors are on the record with the sentence they were actually threatening Swartz with, and, as I said, and Swartz's attorney said, and this New Yorker article said: it was nothing resembling 50 years.

Whether it's 50, 20, or 6, the real number is beside the point. Potential "years" of prison will scare the crap out almost anybody, and our government ALWAYS uses this tactic to coerce people into whatever outcome looks good for their careers.

I think we can leave this at "I disagree that there's no meaningful distinction between a threat of single-digit years and double-digit years sentence".

Re: The Darker Side of Aaron Swartz (2013)

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's a big deal that the charges were disproportionate in this case. Maybe what he did was illegal on paper, but it was not unethical. Disturbingly, there seems to be increasingly many things in our modern society which are ethical yet illegal. You'd think that in those cases, authorities should be more lenient; that they would have a sense of what is right and wrong from the perspective of the average citize…

I don't agree that what he did was ethical. For me, and I think many people, it is clear that what he lied and stole. The works that he stole fall under clearly defined and well established copyright laws and which have licenses to which Swartz would have had to agree. He knew all of this and stole them anyway. He knew exactly what he was doing. This is why he hid his laptop and concealed his face when retrieving tha…

> we live in society of laws. You don't get to just decide which you like and thus will follow.

Tell that to Gandhi, Rosa Parks, Thoreau, and the many benefactors of mankind who have seen a law was wrong, and refused to obey it! And all those that admire their courage and efforts.

Re: The Darker Side of Aaron Swartz (2013)

#144
post #38
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or, possibly, Hacker News doesn't represent hacker culture, but finance-adjacent right-wing techbro culture, which knows perfectly well which side of the copyright issue its bread is buttered on. Spot on. I like HN for certain topics, but it’s by no means representative of the Hacker culture. Even the name seems like duplicitous marketing at best. As an example, the topic of immigration will bring out the nastiest…

Why assume that "hacker culture", whatever exactly that is, is immune to racism?

From the Hacker Manifesto:

"We exist without skin color, without nationality, without religious bias... and you call us criminals."

"My crime is that of judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like."

I wouldn't argue that "hacker culture" is necessarily a monoculture or immune to racism, but I feel that this disembodied ethic is core to the origins of the culture.

Re: The Darker Side of Aaron Swartz (2013)

#145
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He faced nothing resembling 50 years, even on paper, even in the least charitable plausible analysis. You get to these nosebleed sentences by assuming that there are no sentencing guidelines, and no grouping of charges, and that instead you're likely to serve the sum of the maximum sentences spelled out in the statutes you violated. That makes no sense even as a story: the CFAA statutes capture behavior ranging from…

There's a pretty good Popehat article on federal sentencing guidelines from back before Ken White discovered twitter and mostly stopped writing interesting articles about law stuff. https://www.popehat.com/2013/02/05/crime-whale-sushi-sentenc...

Also, as a follow-up, both of the defendants in the article ended up getting probation and community service.

Re: The Darker Side of Aaron Swartz (2013)

#146
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why assume that "hacker culture", whatever exactly that is, is immune to racism?

From the Hacker Manifesto: "We exist without skin color, without nationality, without religious bias... and you call us criminals." "My crime is that of judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like." I wouldn't argue that "hacker culture" is necessarily a monoculture or immune to racism, but I feel that this disembodied ethic is core to the origins of the culture.

I would say, it is a hacker manifesto, not the.

Just like this is a hacker news site and not the exclusive one. And all in all, despite the ads and some other things, like intransparent moderation at times, I think they cultivate a quite good hacker spirit here. Otherwise we wouldn't be visiting.

Re: The Darker Side of Aaron Swartz (2013)

#147
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually the opposite is true here; if you talk about certain data which is considered "bad", like crime statistics, your post will be shadowbanned because it's considered wrongthink (or as you might put it, "straight up racism"), just like Twitter.

> if you talk about certain data which is considered "bad", like crime statistics, your post will be shadowbanned Utter nonsense. Seriously. This is pure claptrap. I've seen so many instances where posters here have brought up "crime statistics" in the context of race or claimed that left-leaning cities are unlivable crime-ridden hellholes, and none where such posts were "shadowbanned".

> claimed that left-leaning cities are unlivable crime-ridden hellholes

Now I'm wondering, does SF count as a "left-leaning city"? Sure, it's a single datapoint but still.

Re: The Darker Side of Aaron Swartz (2013)

#148

> It is commonly assumed that the debate over what Swartz did, and, more generally, the debate over whether information does or does not want to be free, is between hacker culture and copyright culture, young people and old people, but this is not true. On the Hacker News site in the fall of 2012, many commenters disagreed with what he’d done, and argued with his supporters on the site that in a nation ruled by laws…

>Hacker News doesn't represent hacker culture, but finance-adjacent right-wing techbro culture, I disagree. Every time I criticize the (auth) left I get buried in downvotes. Big tech and a lot of HN seems to be vehemently left wing. Let's see if they do it to this comment too.

Try posting any article about racism or misogyny in Silicon Valley. It'll be flagged faster than you can say "Cancel Culture" five times.

Speaking of "cancel culture": HN is the only community where it tends to be almost accepted truth that Cloudflare or Youtube or Telegram doing anything to stop the vilest hate groups from using their platforms is tantamount to the end of democracy.

Do you know who ran Theranos? Do you know who ran Enron? Why not? Yes, there's a difference of a few years. I bet a text analysis would also show the female CEO being mentioned in connection with the demise of their company than the men do. See also: Ellen Pao.

HN went all-in on 'Gamergate'. For a brief time, it certainly did toy with the whole QAnon bullshit, although that went so crazy so fast, it couldn't take hold, thankfully.

It's more populism than right-wing canon these days, but this very thread has a few examples of mindless theorizing about the New Yorker picking its subjects with corrupt intentions. It is beyond me how someone would read this article and consider it a "hit piece", or anything a campaign or the CIA would want to see published. If the military-security-complex wants to change your thinking, they fly F-15 over football stadiums, not get the New England intelligentsia to put out 5,000 word essays sublimely sneaking in their ideas.

Re: The Darker Side of Aaron Swartz (2013)

#149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you talk about certain data which is considered "bad", like crime statistics, your post will be shadowbanned Utter nonsense. Seriously. This is pure claptrap. I've seen so many instances where posters here have brought up "crime statistics" in the context of race or claimed that left-leaning cities are unlivable crime-ridden hellholes, and none where such posts were "shadowbanned".

> claimed that left-leaning cities are unlivable crime-ridden hellholes Now I'm wondering, does SF count as a "left-leaning city"? Sure, it's a single datapoint but still.

Arguably, but I think it's the claim that SF is an "unlivable crime-ridden hellhole" that they would take issue with.

Re: The Darker Side of Aaron Swartz (2013)

#150
post #74
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he was facing 13 felony charges and up to 50 years in prison[0] Pretty hard slap, that. [0] https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/why-did-...

He faced nothing resembling 50 years, even on paper, even in the least charitable plausible analysis. You get to these nosebleed sentences by assuming that there are no sentencing guidelines, and no grouping of charges, and that instead you're likely to serve the sum of the maximum sentences spelled out in the statutes you violated. That makes no sense even as a story: the CFAA statutes capture behavior ranging from…

Thank you for the detailed reasoning and explanation.

I was unaware of these nuances, and remember at the time there was a lot of talk of using the legal sledgehammer to set an example (possibly the same media echo chamber you mention).

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