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Systemd 250 Released

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Re: Systemd 250 Released

#141

Post by p_l »

starklevnertz wrote: post #132
lmm wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And let me ask a question, if systemd is crap, why does every major distro use it? If it was truly crap then surely the distro builders would use the alternative? Because it's tightly coupled to everything (particularly to the few profitable parts of linux - most open-source is maintained on a shoestring, so it's pretty cheap to take control over development of even vital low-level infrastructure). This is how syst…

But no systemd distro is saying “we want to dump systemd but we can’t because it’s too tightly Coupled” are they? Or maybe the maintainers are I don’t know do you have links to show this is the case? Systemd is used by all major linux flavors because it’s the best solution for the problems it solves. The distro maintainers are too smart to be stuck with systemd against their will. And it’s linux …. make a better solu…

That's a bit of revisionist history.

Systemd was minority pretty much till GNOME 3.8 introduced super-hard dependencies on it through an interface that was supposedly documented (Ubuntu sunk a bunch of money trying to keep alternative implementation running).

For many a distro, it became a question - "do we include GNOME, or do we drop it?" and that was impetus to move to systemd

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#142

Post by p_l »

3np wrote: post #91
dschuetz wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reading this the following comes to mind: Wow systemd breaks important things and solves non-problems, awesome, I love systemd!

Honestly, moving my VPN management from wg-quick+ip-route+iptables to systemd-networkd was a great experience and made things so much easier and predictable. Wish I had done it way sooner. Similarly, after having spent way too much time fiddling with IP and routing in other ways (OpenWRT comes to mind), systemd-networkd made it so much more predictable and straight-forward. Similar story with other components. Having…

Now if only there was a way to reliably test networkd setups...

Sincerely, someone who lost a week or two trying to get anywhere with a bit more complex setup and ended up going back to /etc/interfaces because it had a "show what commands will be run" option

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#143

Post by p_l »

sigmonsays wrote: post #2

minor issue, but anyone know how breaking changes are managed? between ubuntu16 and ubuntu20 some unit file parameters have changed. I find it rather troubling that we can't maintain consistency.

The approach was always "fuck you" and it's bigger part of "lennart hate" than people like to admit...

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#144

Post by p_l »

nightfly wrote: post #33
ChuckMcM wrote: post #6

At this point any system that is running this should not be called "UNIX derived" or "UNIX like" as systemd has subsumed all of the pre-existing architecture around system startup and management. Not arguing if that is a good or bad thing just saying we should stop putting systemd managed systems in the 'UNIX' column just like we don't put Windows NT systems in the UNIX column.

Solaris's init/service/network management is/was just as complicated and it was definitely still UNIX.

Solaris 10 system is IMHO less complicated than systemd mess, and definitely easier to debug when things go wrong (and the documentation doesn't lie)

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#145

Post by diffeomorphism »

OJFord wrote: post #137
diffeomorphism wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, pretty much so. If there is a dish everybody likes but you say it is "garbage" then you are just wrong and an arrogant snob.

A 'Big Mac' is objectively not nutritious, and cheap meat though. I like systemd.

Then say that instead of "garbage".

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#146

Post by esarbe »

dschuetz wrote: post #66
sjansen wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is so much truth to what you say. I used Linux exclusively from January 2000 until April 2012. A lot has changed in that time, but out of all the changes the three I'm most thankful for are: (1) Xorg replacing XFree86 and making video "just work" (2) Pulse Audio replacing OSS and making audio "just work" (3) systemd replacing the dog's breakfast of scripting madness each distro built from scratch instead of col…

> (3) systemd replacing the dog's breakfast of scripting madness each distro built from scratch instead of collaborating Which goes completely against what Linux stands for - collaboration. The "scripting madness" as you call it was actually completely transparent - if the scripting was bad, you were free to fix it. But now you have to issue a bug report when systemd does something stupid and it's not even your fault…

> Which goes completely against what Linux stands for - collaboration.

Have a look at the contributor stats[0] for systemd and then repeat that with a straight face.

> Lennart and his gang

Also known as the Linux Plumbers[1]. You know, the guys that actually tie everything together and that enjoy the well-deserved trust of most distributions and users.

> dismissed with "no a bug, won't fix".

Usually with very good technical reasons.

> The "scripting madness" as you call it was actually completely transparent - if the scripting was bad, you were free to fix it.

You're still free to fix it; systemd is open-source.

[0] https://github.com/systemd/systemd/graphs/contributors

[1] https://www.linuxplumbersconf.org/

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#147

Post by asymmetric »

3np wrote: post #29

systemd-networkd will now automatically configure routes to addresses specified in AllowedIPs=. This feature can be controlled via RouteTable= and RouteMetric= settings in [WireGuard] or [WireGuardPeer] sections. Wow, that’s a pretty significant breaking change that I’m surprised to see (and one I don’t really agree with; there was reasoning behind not doing that in the first place). This is going to bite most users…

> there was reasoning behind not doing that in the first place

What would the reasons be?

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#148

Post by kaba0 »

lmm wrote: post #67
sjansen wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is so much truth to what you say. I used Linux exclusively from January 2000 until April 2012. A lot has changed in that time, but out of all the changes the three I'm most thankful for are: (1) Xorg replacing XFree86 and making video "just work" (2) Pulse Audio replacing OSS and making audio "just work" (3) systemd replacing the dog's breakfast of scripting madness each distro built from scratch instead of col…

The thing is, you used to be able to fix something and have it stay fixed. You used to be able to find a config that worked - which, sure, might have required some manual experimentation and customization - but then you could back it up and keep it. Maybe pulseaudio and systemd only breaks 2% of the time rather than 3% of the time. But when they do break, you can't understand what's happened and you can't fix them, a…

That’s no good reason to ditch a superior solution. A modern combustion engine is pretty much impossible to fix with your ordinary tooling/knowledge, but it doesn’t make me want to use some old, weak/inefficient one instead.

Also, I could not do anything with a bug inside firefox, the kernel and a litany of other complex programs (mind that they are complex due to essential complexity) so I don’t see system booting an exception to that.

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#149

Post by kaba0 »

captainmuon wrote: post #107
42jd wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has learned Linux/Unix just the past few months using a systemd based distro, I find it a breeze to use. Great documentation, FOSS, and really easy to pick up. I just don’t understand why there is so much dislike thrown around when that energy can be focused elsewhere on truly bad behavior/software. And from my understanding, there are distros out there that don’t use systemd for those who dislike it t…

Systemd by itself is alright, the problem for me is the larger movement from "Linux is about choice" to tightly integrated, opinionated tools. Examples: - Gnome started to depend on systemd features. Now non-systemd systems become second class citizens. - You used to be able to freely swap out window managers, taskbars, and so on, because everything was working with common standards. In the modern world, everything i…

Wayland doesn’t mandate anything, it’s a goddamn protocol to put a rectangular window’s content to the screen. It is also freely extendable and has a very sane feature discovery in-built so basically any additional functionality can be created through a simple API (and many such exist already)

Re: Systemd 250 Released

#150

Post by kaba0 »

captainmuon wrote: post #135
1_player wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Linux has never been about choice. There was choice because no two people could agree on a set of protocols and standards. And slowly we're converging on a small set of decent (not perfect!) ideas volunteers can focus their efforts on. I honestly hope the choice meme dies because it is so toxic. My Linux workstation and servers are not something I want to tinker with, I want solidity and stability and a fragmented us…

"linux" (as in: Unixoid distributions for desktop systems) has always been about choice. Debian's update-alternatives, the whole FreeDesktop project, ICCCM standards. The theming community, gnome-look.org, kde-look.org, and so on. If I want the stabilty and flexibility of Linux (the kernel) and the GNU command line tools, and the flexibility to choose a UX paradigm that I prefer and visuals that I like, I go to deskt…

Fragmentation is not a skippable problem though. And especially when you depend on lower level services, choice without a standard interface will create an exponential explosion of should-be-supported APIs, which is terrible for an already thin community.
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