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Samsung plans $17B chip plant in Taylor, Texas

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Re: Samsung plans $17B chip plant in Taylor, Texas

#141

Post by Robotbeat »

mrweasel wrote: post #121
Robotbeat wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well in principle Texas has lower (almost half) industrial energy costs than Taiwan, which could help reduce wafer production costs especially at the lower resolution nodes. As Moore’s Law slows, things like energy and raw material costs may matter more. And having wafer plants close to fab plants can help. Rough order of magnitude, but for a lower cost wafer (think like 90nm or above, not 7nm), electricity and energ…

I was wondering why Texas keep coming up when new US fabs a being talked about. From an outsider it just looks like the low energy cost comes from failing to properly manage and upgrade the Texas energy grid.

The energy prices are low because Texas has tons of oil and gas and wind. The energy grid is actually more efficiently managed than California, which has had similar problems with electricity supply.

But the main reason Texas comes up is it has a very long history in semiconductors with a big workforce and lots of semiconductor companies.

Re: Samsung plans $17B chip plant in Taylor, Texas

#142

Post by dntrkv »

rllearneratwork wrote: post #76

with Tesla, SpaceX, Samsung and other tech investing this heavy in Texas, when/will it surpass CA as a tech powerhouse of the future?

https://www.statista.com/statistics/424167/venture-capital-i...

As far as VC money goes, Texas has a ways to go.

Re: Samsung plans $17B chip plant in Taylor, Texas

#144

Post by dekhn »

fabfabfab wrote: post #45
lkbm wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Also not an expert.) In general I wouldn't expect US manufacturing to do a lot to lower production costs. More capacity in general obviously helps, and I could definitely see the US doing a lot to subsidize domestic production, if that counts as bringing down the costs. Maybe higher wages will lead to more automation.

Expert here. Worked in a Fab (Automated Material Handling Systems or AMHS group). You might be suprised how automated it already is [1]. Notice the OHTs (Overhead Hoist Transport)[2] running on a system of highways and superhighways on the ceiling. Each of these OHTs carry a box inside it called a FOUPs (Front Opening Unified Pods)[3] carrying upto 25 wafers. That can easily be worth $1M+ per box. They have standardi…

thanks for this highly interesting comment about the fab floor.

Re: Samsung plans $17B chip plant in Taylor, Texas

#145

Post by emodendroket »

0_____0 wrote: post #93
josaka wrote: post #69

After the TX grid failure last winter, it's probably not a coincidence that Samsung's new facility will be near ERCOT's operation center in Taylor, which manages the TX grid, and will likely be the last load to shed when the grid's stressed. Used to work in the Austin fab, and the amount of money lost per minute in a power failure is mind boggling. The tax breaks Taylor offered ($314m) are not that different from wha…

tangentially related bit of trivium... when i was house hunting a looked at a house across from a fire station, and upon doing research about what it's like to live across from one, found that a.) they tend not to blast sirens upon exiting the station, in contrast to living near a hospital with an ED, and b.) the power grid segments that fire stations are on have priority and are less likely to lose power during blac…

I used to live a mile or two away from a hospital and getting the lights back on before everyone else was nice.

Re: Samsung plans $17B chip plant in Taylor, Texas

#146

Post by AdamN »

JavaBatman wrote: post #11

I am still amazed by the shortsightedness of how these critical and strategic goods are off-shore. No wonder why the supply chains are fragile and not robust. It should be illegal for strategic goods and components such as chips and semiconductors to be produced offshore. Yes, it will raise prices in the short and medium-term, but it will make the domestic economy and manufacturing sector more robust, resilient to su…

No single country is capable of producing the newest chips end to end. Lithograph machines, raw materials, clean room builders, educated workforce, and the scale to do each of these economically are simply not available in one location.

By the time you could produce such a focus of the industry, it would already have moved on and require different inputs that are not in that country.

Re: Samsung plans $17B chip plant in Taylor, Texas

#147

Post by kurthr »

88840-8855 wrote: post #130
bell-cot wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This...but did Samsung quietly negotiate a "any further energy supply f*ck-ups are 100% on YOUR dime" deal with the State of Texas, or what? By several accounts, the TX grid got darn close to collapse last winter - at which point "ERCOT Op Center is next door, and we get top priority" would not get you a single erg.

What finance guy will ever approve this? I doubt that the service agreement would ever be approved with that clause.

LOL, the current political heads for the state of Texas (and county of Taylor) will happily trade future liability of their constituents for investment now (and kickbacks later). Honestly, I think Samsung's management is more comfortable in this sort of "political" environment than many others.

If you watch local news reporting, it's hilarious that they (politicians) have no idea what the "factory" does. I'm personally highly doubtful that a fab which hasn't broken ground will be producing viable 5nm at the 2H of 2024 as claimed (or cyber trucks for that matter).

Re: Samsung plans $17B chip plant in Taylor, Texas

#148

Post by adam_arthur »

rllearneratwork wrote: post #76

with Tesla, SpaceX, Samsung and other tech investing this heavy in Texas, when/will it surpass CA as a tech powerhouse of the future?

Beyond specific companies, Texas has more favorable business climate and tax rates.

Housing alone is such a huge knock against CA for new companies. Even paying somebody 500k there leaves them feeling middle class when trying to raise a family.

Perhaps a bit of an exaggeration, but in Texas they build like crazy to support population inflows. If you drive through Austin you'll see every third or fourth house is getting torn down to be rebuilt into 2-3 houses on the same plot.

Fundamentally this just gives you a lot more runway to grow.

I don't know why anybody would start a company in SF these days, aside from VC being local and sometimes requiring it.

I have no doubt Texas will overtake CA in terms of economic output, but will take decades just due to previous inertia. Also remote work may be the true winner in the end.

I do think CA is still the place you want to be if money is no object though. Unfortunately that doesn't apply for most people. There may actually be a change in political winds that blow things back the other way though, just viewing this from today's lens.

Re: Samsung plans $17B chip plant in Taylor, Texas

#149

Post by Robotbeat »

pie42000 wrote: post #122
Robotbeat wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well in principle Texas has lower (almost half) industrial energy costs than Taiwan, which could help reduce wafer production costs especially at the lower resolution nodes. As Moore’s Law slows, things like energy and raw material costs may matter more. And having wafer plants close to fab plants can help. Rough order of magnitude, but for a lower cost wafer (think like 90nm or above, not 7nm), electricity and energ…

Why are people concerned about energy and material costs? Semiconductors are probably the highest margin manufactured goods on the planet, with materials and energy being the lowest cost input to the process. The only good that can compete is bottled water or movie theater popcorn. This is 100% politically motivated.

It takes about 3 kWh per square centimeter to make a high-quality silicon wafer. 90 nm node silicon wafer might cost about three dollars per square centimeter. So it isn’t a rounding error for actual wafer production. The unsubsidized electricity cost in Taiwan is on the order of 30¢/kWh for natural gas vs about 7-8¢/kWh in Texas. So the difference isn’t zero.

Purifying and growing high quality wafers is very, very energy intensive. This becomes more important as Moore’s Law slows and more of chip costs become just the wafer costs.

Re: Samsung plans $17B chip plant in Taylor, Texas

#150

Post by mynameisash »

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #137
shortstuffsushi wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if the siren thing varies from location to location, a good friend of mine lived right next to one and it seemed you couldn't go 15 minutes without being drown out by them heading out.

If the fire station is located on a busy road or near a blind curve, turning on the siren when exiting might be a good policy. Out on a county road with good sight lines and low traffic? They can wait until they're going at a hazardous speed or intersection. My main concern would be all of the communications equipment they typically have. Being that close to high powered transmitters can cause annoying interference.

Not just a good policy -- my wife is a former EMT & firefighter in MN, and at least there, apparently it's the law that fire trucks blast their horns at every intersection. Whether this is required when they leave the fire hall and turn onto the first road, I don't know.
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