How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams • Hacker News Board

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#141

Post by therealdrag0 » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 6:45 AM UTC

ineptech wrote: post #77

zelon88 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is somewhat meant to be snarky, but then again the original quote is exceedingly naive. It describes very well the phenomenon but gives advice that I can only see ever working at BigCo. Where your team is huge and if you screw up there's another one down the hall. The truth is most places that exhibit this level of helplessness often include a small team of 5 or 6, each with plenty of tenure. With no other lateral…

Why do you want to "engineer your way to the fucking top" of a broken organization with a bunch of teams full of bad engineers managed by stuffed shirts who don't give a shit? You may think I sound naive; I think you sound burned out. In my experience, it's pretty common for someone to say, "hey boss, Joe is really phoning it in these past few months, it's dragging the team down and you need to do something about it"…

I’ll plus one this. I have also talked to managers about coworkers (and have them ask me about teammates). Maybe it’s luck if the draw but it’s possible to have healthy managers and still have dysfunction that needs dealt with. There never won’t be.

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#142

Post by agumonkey » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 6:49 AM UTC

oceanghost wrote: post #139

agumonkey wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I .. struggle to function in society. There are tribal forces at play that are beyond me. Or require me to play games I don't want to play. Social tissue is a strange medium and most of the time it's a friction generating engine. People complain, time passes on, nothing happens, repeat.

This strikes a chord with me. Ironically, the only way to minimize the "game playing" is by mastering them. There will always be people out there whose only real skill is manipulating the people around them, and who will deploy that skill at full force. I'm not saying you should manipulate the people around you... but the twin powers of, "understanding whats going on around you" and "documenting everything", go a lon…

Yes.. I came to a similar sad realization. Either understand the game better or somehow treat people like confused scared kids posturing.

I also try to distill good vibes and motivation, bit by bit. Listening, suggesting, showing.

I've asked a few places but I've been looking for the social dynamics of work groups.

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#143

Post by therealdrag0 » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 6:50 AM UTC

ironman1478 wrote: post #118

travisgriggs wrote: post #116

What I’ve noticed in this cycle is that as the turn over continues, the employee skill level will trend downwards. Essentially in a sort of ironic-Darwinian-gone-wrong, the system selects for those that will stay and/or don’t care or are desperate enough for work (because of geographical allegiance of low hireability, or just low initiative to make a change). I fear my current workplace that was so cool years ago is…

This is definitely happening. A engineer can't really work on anything truly complicated if they hop around every 2-3 years. These types of engineers gain cursory knowledge of topics but never become experts.

That’s not exactly what parent was saying. They were saying, afaict, if an org is struggling with retention then each successive generation will be worse at affecting change. They aren’t saying anything about individuals themselves who switch jobs often.

But about your point I think it can depend greatly. Personally I switched jobs many times but have so far kept in the same field and my knowledge has compounded and I have never dealt behind. In fact sometimes I feel the opposite, some coworkers who have less diverse experience have less to offer.

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#144

Post by vimwizard » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 6:50 AM UTC

secondaryacct wrote: post #78

NAHWheatCracker wrote: post #19

Just today, my team had a developer meeting. The tech lead started out by complaining about how he has to do an untested unplanned release today because another team made some urgent changes. He's the only person who knows how to release it. The other team didn't communicate until today that a release is necessary. We've done two other releases in the past month and both required a day of troubleshooting to fix issue…

What you're doing wrong, very honestly, is you suggest and 2 of your suggestions are losses (denying release). Dont suggest, make enemies: send emails to both teams saying now it must be like that, lay the plan, pose a meeting to go through the plan and get yelled at. Once you get yelled at by the complainypants because what you tell them to do is too hard, now you can go to your manager and explain him they complain…

It's a fun game to play, until you realize it's not your job to manage the managers and your co-workers, and that you're underpaid for having that extra headache :)

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#145

Post by newswasboring » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 6:59 AM UTC

nickthemagicman wrote: post #114

rmah wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tech lead started out by complaining about...When he finished complaining... My manager doesn't know anything about the code, my project, or the release project. IOW, your team has no leadership and no management. Your team lead may be called that, but sounds like he doesn't lead at all. Your manager may be called that, but he doesn't manage either. This happens a lot when people are given responsibility without…

This resonated strongly with me. If you don't want to become a leader, what do you do in a disorganized mob situation? Leave?

Sometimes there is someone else who wants to lead but can't due to political reasons. You can try supporting them. Little things like seconding someone's ideas can go a long way. At least in the place I work at.

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#146

Post by newswasboring » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 7:00 AM UTC

kodah wrote: post #83

NAHWheatCracker wrote: post #19

Just today, my team had a developer meeting. The tech lead started out by complaining about how he has to do an untested unplanned release today because another team made some urgent changes. He's the only person who knows how to release it. The other team didn't communicate until today that a release is necessary. We've done two other releases in the past month and both required a day of troubleshooting to fix issue…

I've worked on a good number of teams just like yours. I always told myself things would be different when I was in charge. Then I was in charge. I learned pretty early on that I have political capital, and very little of it. Instead, I have to have a manager that's pretty buck wild when I tell them I need them to be, and I have to deliver them some wins that will grease their wheels too. Good managers are hard to co…

Did you make your situation clear to your team? I find that is the biggest source of frustration.

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#147

Post by mixmastamyk » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 7:15 AM UTC

beachy wrote: post #123

mixmastamyk wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All you have to do is say no once in a while. No, don't bring the company to a halt with a tantrum. Just insist on getting one thing fixed a month and nine months from now everyone will be a lot happier.

> All you have to do is say no once in a while... > Just insist... Some companies work like this, but many don't. Such utterances could be charting a course to the door for you.

Plenty of openings out there. Not worth suffering to get a 2% raise rather than 1%. If they won't let you fix something once a month it's time to get moving.

Learned helplessness, indeed.

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#148

Post by tonyedgecombe » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 7:27 AM UTC

nickthemagicman wrote: post #114

rmah wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tech lead started out by complaining about...When he finished complaining... My manager doesn't know anything about the code, my project, or the release project. IOW, your team has no leadership and no management. Your team lead may be called that, but sounds like he doesn't lead at all. Your manager may be called that, but he doesn't manage either. This happens a lot when people are given responsibility without…

This resonated strongly with me. If you don't want to become a leader, what do you do in a disorganized mob situation? Leave?

Take the stoical approach. Focus on what's in within your locus of control and ignore everything else.

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#149

Post by amitport » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 7:47 AM UTC

NAHWheatCracker wrote: post #19

Just today, my team had a developer meeting. The tech lead started out by complaining about how he has to do an untested unplanned release today because another team made some urgent changes. He's the only person who knows how to release it. The other team didn't communicate until today that a release is necessary. We've done two other releases in the past month and both required a day of troubleshooting to fix issue…

From my experience you need to play a small political game, no way around it, what you want to do costs money and presents risk. If you believe it is necessary you need to find supporters in the management floor. Convince someone who can actually give you backup and help you get this done. If you can't find anyone like that, then either work on the project underground (risky, more work and less credit for you) or let it go (or leave).

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#150

Post by gyulai » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 7:56 AM UTC

"Learned helplessness" as a psychological phenomenon relates to situations where the individual assumes they are powerless to change certain things, but they actually are not.

A lot of the time, when one is an individual contributor in an engineering team, that is not the case. Rather it is the case that you really are powerless.

That's an important distinction to make. Don't assume that your struggle is with internal psychological forces, when your struggle really is with your teammates and the team's power structure.