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Element One – All of Matrix, WhatsApp, Signal and Telegram in one place

element.io

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Re: Element One – All of Matrix, WhatsApp, Signal and Telegram in one place

#141

Post by KAMSPioneer »

Arathorn wrote: post #125
tao_oat wrote: post #97

> It’s also worth noting that end-to-end encryption is necessarily broken as messages to (and from) WhatsApp, Signal and Telegram pass across the bridge(s). The bridge(s) operates in Element’s trusted EMS environment, with no content scanning or datamining, but currently bridged conversations are not stored end-to-end encrypted in Matrix (they will be in the future). As a Signal user, I kind of don't want this to tak…

(Element CEO here). Honestly, it depends on your threat profile. Any kind of bridge has to inevitably MITM your conversations in order to work, and we’ve tried to spell that out in all the product info about Element One. If you want to avoid your E2EE conversations on Signal or WhatsApp being relayed via a service like Element One (because you’re an activist or whatever), then your options are to not bridge at all, o…

That's all well and good, but I believe the original complaint was more concerning the second party in the conversation. There's no way for me, a hypothetical person who wants to keep my Signal messages 100% encrypted in the Signal ecosystem, to opt out of my contacts using an Element bridge.

Sure, I can go around and tell everyone I know that they shouldn't bridge Signal to Element One because , but there's no way for me to tell that my advice has been followed. Previously, the chances that someone had set up such a bridge were small, but by nature of making these things accessible, Element One also increases the risk of my conversations being (benevolently?) MITM'd.

I think it's a great offering, but I share GP's reticence about a system that puts what used to be zero-knowledge conversations in plaintext on a third-party server...all without me realizing.

Re: Element One – All of Matrix, WhatsApp, Signal and Telegram in one place

#142

Post by Arathorn »

fsflover wrote: post #135
Arathorn wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Element CEO here). Honestly, it depends on your threat profile. Any kind of bridge has to inevitably MITM your conversations in order to work, and we’ve tried to spell that out in all the product info about Element One. If you want to avoid your E2EE conversations on Signal or WhatsApp being relayed via a service like Element One (because you’re an activist or whatever), then your options are to not bridge at all, o…

> Any kind of bridge has to inevitably MITM your conversations in order to work Can't you just pass the encrypted message further without decrypting it? Of course, there needs to be the same decryption mechanism on both sides, but it doesn't make it impossible.

At that point it’s basically clientside bridging (or multihead messagering), given having decrypted the message (even if you had the right keys available) you’d need to speak the protocol of the remote service.

Re: Element One – All of Matrix, WhatsApp, Signal and Telegram in one place

#143

Post by briffle »

personjerry wrote: post #35

Back in the day before the rise of Facebook, there was an open source service that combined all the popular messaging protocols - MSN, AoL, IRC, etc. It was called Pidgin[0], and it never got particularly big. I see the same thing here. While it's interesting, I'm failing to see what the use case is. What's the niche that needs this solved in a big way? [0] https://www.pidgin.im/

The Glory days, when both Google Talk and Facebook used XMPP, and you can run one client to chat with all of them. We ran Prosidy and Pidgin at my old job, and it worked great for our company chat server.

Re: Element One – All of Matrix, WhatsApp, Signal and Telegram in one place

#144

Post by ksec »

personjerry wrote: post #35

Back in the day before the rise of Facebook, there was an open source service that combined all the popular messaging protocols - MSN, AoL, IRC, etc. It was called Pidgin[0], and it never got particularly big. I see the same thing here. While it's interesting, I'm failing to see what the use case is. What's the niche that needs this solved in a big way? [0] https://www.pidgin.im/

Everything old is new again.

Re: Element One – All of Matrix, WhatsApp, Signal and Telegram in one place

#145

Post by xanaxagoras »

Arathorn wrote: post #125
tao_oat wrote: post #97

> It’s also worth noting that end-to-end encryption is necessarily broken as messages to (and from) WhatsApp, Signal and Telegram pass across the bridge(s). The bridge(s) operates in Element’s trusted EMS environment, with no content scanning or datamining, but currently bridged conversations are not stored end-to-end encrypted in Matrix (they will be in the future). As a Signal user, I kind of don't want this to tak…

(Element CEO here). Honestly, it depends on your threat profile. Any kind of bridge has to inevitably MITM your conversations in order to work, and we’ve tried to spell that out in all the product info about Element One. If you want to avoid your E2EE conversations on Signal or WhatsApp being relayed via a service like Element One (because you’re an activist or whatever), then your options are to not bridge at all, o…

> (because you’re an activist or whatever)

How about because I'm a regular person, and I don't want everything I say analyzed by the federal government and stored in perpetuity? I'm increasingly repulsed by this notion that unless I'm doing something illegal or in opposition the the ruling party, encryption is just a luxury. Encryption is for anyone with any desire to express themselves honestly without modifying their behavior because someone is watching.

People flock to Signal for a reason and a lot of them will use this "bridge" without understanding what they're giving up. You're doing more harm that good to try to usher people towards your platform.

Re: Element One – All of Matrix, WhatsApp, Signal and Telegram in one place

#146

Post by otterley »

tommek4077 wrote: post #139
loriverkutya wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t run my own service for the same reason I don’t build my own car or I don’t do accounting for my company, I don’t have the time to learn how to do it nor doing it.

That is the kind of comment that freaks me out on HACKER news.

Not everybody hacks on everything. Many of us pick and choose our hobbies. I don't sysadmin my phone for the same reason.

Re: Element One – All of Matrix, WhatsApp, Signal and Telegram in one place

#147

Post by xanaxagoras »

KAMSPioneer wrote: post #141
Arathorn wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Element CEO here). Honestly, it depends on your threat profile. Any kind of bridge has to inevitably MITM your conversations in order to work, and we’ve tried to spell that out in all the product info about Element One. If you want to avoid your E2EE conversations on Signal or WhatsApp being relayed via a service like Element One (because you’re an activist or whatever), then your options are to not bridge at all, o…

That's all well and good, but I believe the original complaint was more concerning the second party in the conversation. There's no way for me, a hypothetical person who wants to keep my Signal messages 100% encrypted in the Signal ecosystem, to opt out of my contacts using an Element bridge. Sure, I can go around and tell everyone I know that they shouldn't bridge Signal to Element One because , but there's no way f…

> I think it's a great offering, but I share GP's reticence about a system that puts what used to be zero-knowledge conversations in plaintext on a third-party server...all without me realizing.

Element CEO here, you must be a tinfoil hat crazy person, everyone should communicate in cleartext, you're not a terrorist are you

Re: Element One – All of Matrix, WhatsApp, Signal and Telegram in one place

#148

Post by fastball »

chirau wrote: post #134
fastball wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is definitely a benefit to having a unified interface. The vast majority of the time I don't want to use each chat apps specific features, I just want to message people. And then sometimes I want to be distraction free and turn off notifications. This is much easier if everything is routed through one app. I'm also on macOS but I've been using Texts[1] for a few months and it has been a great experience. [1] ht…

Do you have an extra invite by any chance?

Sure if you DM me on Twitter I can send one your way.

Re: Element One – All of Matrix, WhatsApp, Signal and Telegram in one place

#149

Post by zepto »

trenchgun wrote: post #120
tao_oat wrote: post #97

> It’s also worth noting that end-to-end encryption is necessarily broken as messages to (and from) WhatsApp, Signal and Telegram pass across the bridge(s). The bridge(s) operates in Element’s trusted EMS environment, with no content scanning or datamining, but currently bridged conversations are not stored end-to-end encrypted in Matrix (they will be in the future). As a Signal user, I kind of don't want this to tak…

You don't know that when you message someone on Signal it's for their eyes only. What you know is that unless their device is compromised, it is up to them to decide who can read the messages that you send to them. Thus the situation with the bridge is not in reality different from the situation now.

No - the bridge could be compromised without your conversation partner’s involvement.

I.e. the bridge is a vulnerability that enables man in the middle attacks.

Re: Element One – All of Matrix, WhatsApp, Signal and Telegram in one place

#150

Post by NikolaNovak »

I fully understand that for many, this is not an acceptable security risk. It may have technical compromises.

For me, Whatsapp is used by my non-technical in-laws for the simple reason of "because everybody uses it". I find whatsapp extremely impractical (I communicate better via large ergonomic keyboard on my computer, vs via 1.5"-wide screen; to each their own), so anything that makes Whatsapp and other proliferation of incompatible annoying chat services easier... yes, yes, please yes :)

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