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FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

cgit.freebsd.org

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Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#141

Post by hericium »

wahern wrote: post #90
jmclnx wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sad to hear FreeBSD is changing root from tcsh to sh (FreeBSD moved from csh to tcsh a while ago). It was one of the things that made FreeBSD unique. I guess the got sick of hearing this question: "can I change the root shell to bash ?". I think they were the last holdout of the BSDs. But to me, if you care what root's shell is, you are doing something wrong by using root way too often.

It is an absolutely trivial thing. Nobody should be making decisions about whether to use FreeBSD based on such trivialities. That said, it really was damned annoying. I like to port my software to AIX, FreeBSD, Linux/glibc, Linux/musl, NetBSD, macOS, OpenBSD, and Solaris. All of them use a Bourne-like root shell except FreeBSD, and every time I go to upgrade a FreeBSD VM or build a new one I seem to always trip over…

> if FreeBSD (...) began publishing official VM images, that'd be worth so much more to me.

They do: ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/releases/VM-IMAGES/

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#142

Post by Fr3ck »

severino wrote: post #29
dekhn wrote: post #11

We once upgraded a major research department from csh to tcsh (while also migrating most users to bash). A senior leader complained that when they hit the up arrow, the last command they typed showed up. I explained how to disable readline

I wonder what he was using the up arrow key for in the shell.

Doesn’t the up arrow key show the last command executed?

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#143

Post by dTal »

throwawayboise wrote: post #120
dekhn wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

without certainty, prior probabilities suggest a technically inclined research leader would be male.

Without certainty, "he" should also be interpreted as gender-neutral.

That strongly carries the implication that male is the default, primary sex.

You're about 40 years late for that debate.

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#144

Post by dTal »

dekhn wrote: post #123
azinman2 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You did write they. Which is why I called it out when I saw what I presumed was a presumed he (apparently you wrote it in another comment, so I was wrong in this specific case... the threading/timeline made that unclear). Regardless of your philosophy, the constant presumption of male hood is all over on HN if you're sensitive to watch for it. I don't know what your philosophy is, but the pattern absolutely is diffic…

I think this is an overly negative attitude. Note that I've worked for multiple very successful computer scientist women. They have no tolerance for folks who sit around and complain about the unfairness. It's clear their confidence, ego, and drive, allowed them to succeed. I slipped when I said he in the second comment. I normally prefer to not state the gender of people (to avoid the presumption of malehood) but I…

"Successful women in computer science are universally thick skinned, confident and driven, and would not have succeeded if it were not for those qualities."

This appears to me to make the opposite point that you think it does.

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#145

Post by xenophonf »

hyproxia wrote: post #138
xenophonf wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FreeBSD _is_ a Unix, being derived from the BSD Net-2 release in the early 1990s. GNU and Linux distributions are actually Unix clones, with different distributions mimicking or incorporating code from the various open source and proprietary Unix operating systems. For example, Slackware used to use an rc-style init system like BSD. Linux cgroups (underlying tech like Docker) look very much like Solaris zones. GNU co…

>FreeBSD _is_ a Unix That's a common misconception. It's as much of a UNIX as Linux is (see the AT&T lawsuit).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#146

Post by dekhn »

dTal wrote: post #144
dekhn wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is an overly negative attitude. Note that I've worked for multiple very successful computer scientist women. They have no tolerance for folks who sit around and complain about the unfairness. It's clear their confidence, ego, and drive, allowed them to succeed. I slipped when I said he in the second comment. I normally prefer to not state the gender of people (to avoid the presumption of malehood) but I…

"Successful women in computer science are universally thick skinned, confident and driven, and would not have succeeded if it were not for those qualities." This appears to me to make the opposite point that you think it does.

nope it doesn't. those are necessary but not sufficient skills for success in this field.

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#147

Post by gigatexal »

unanswered wrote: post #140
vermaden wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ZSH shell would be actually great choice for shell in the FreeBSD Base System because it uses the MIT license. As BASH uses the GPL3 license it does not have the chance of being included in the FreeBSD Base System because the FreeBSD project currently tries to remove all GPL3 licensed software from its base. Details here: https://wiki.freebsd.org/GPLinBase

zsh isn't POSIX compliant though.

It's not? In what ways?

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#148

Post by dTal »

dekhn wrote: post #146
dTal wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Successful women in computer science are universally thick skinned, confident and driven, and would not have succeeded if it were not for those qualities." This appears to me to make the opposite point that you think it does.

nope it doesn't. those are necessary but not sufficient skills for success in this field.

Really? And why is that? And for men too? I doubt that.

Your observation of a small number of successful women in computer science who aren't bothered by gender bias is entirely consistent with hordes of other women who've been chased away. This is a classic case of Survivorship Bias:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#149

Post by gorgoiler »

dekhn wrote: post #108
gorgoiler wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do people care what their default shell is, when you can just “exec csh” immediately upon logging in? Was this kind of shell changing disabled? Maybe there’s no way of doing that exec automatically? Is there some advantage to having your shell of choice explicitly listed in /etc/passwd?

There's a long list of boring answers you probably don't care about involving "these are biomedical researchers using UNIX, not hackers", "complex legacy scripts that depend on default shells", and "enterprise compliance".

The second two sound quite interesting. I hadn’t thought about those at all.

Re: FreeBSD switches the default root shell from csh to sh

#150

Post by guilhas »

wolverine876 wrote: post #129
guilhas wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A woman in engineering should know that just because things have been probable in the past does not mean they will in the future For a guy growing around computers it has also been pretty lonely, more girls would have been welcome at any stage...

> A woman in engineering should know that just because things have been probable in the past does not mean they will in the future I don't think I would tell someone what they "should" know. That 'knowledge' seems like an unlikely possibility: I think it probable that significant discrimination against women in tech will (very unfortunately) continue for another generation, at least. One signal to me is that many rej…

I agree I shouldn't have to tell anyone, because it is pretty standard knowledge "things change"

I would say there is no significant discrimination of women in tech

I would say that there is a significant lack of interest of women for tech

If anything there is positive discrimination in hiring for example, my manager already said if there are men and women applying, women will have the advantage. I guess they always had, it is just they are/were very fewer compared to men. Other example is my previous manager always available and keen to help the female colleagues, and busy for the male

The only thing you could point out would be biased education even though women outperform men in all areas from basic to university, which gives them more choice

And who can blame anyone, the majority of IT/Dev jobs are booring. Fill your head with technical knowledge, that in a couple of years is completely useless. Looks cool but useless. If I had the opportunity and and reasonable salary I would definitely change for something more in the areas of history philosophy politics...

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