Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of the web • Hacker News Board

Re: Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of the web

#141

Post by Mindwipe » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 3:08 PM UTC

exporectomy wrote: post #56

sverhagen wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that a false choice, that's only phrased to cater to the "that makes it easy for the bank"? They are now categorically refusing certain businesses. If those businesses could at least appeal and demonstrate that they are within the law, why wouldn't banks be mandated to process the transactions? This could go with some sort of safe haven for the banks, that if they did this review process that they won't be liab…

Parent's point seems like what they're doing here. Trading underage porn is illegal, as well as revenge porn in some places, etc. so they forbid that and allow legal porn. Seems like they really are doing "all legal things and no illegal things" more accurately, and it really is burdensome to everyone.

Mastercard's BRAM rules involve blocking quite a lot of things that are legal though - you're not allowed to mention hypnosis, or blood, or vampires in adult content, even in a completely fictional context.

Re: Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of the web

#142

Post by franga2000 » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 3:15 PM UTC

matheusmoreira wrote: post #134

franga2000 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How credit card processing hasn't been classified and regulated as a utility is truly baffling to me. Especially with governments explicitly recommending contactless card payments instead of cash during the pandemic and many doing things like taking large bank notes out of circulation for years now. We don't need crazy things like crypto - we need decentralised and accountable banks and payment processors (not that t…

> We don't need crazy things like crypto - we need decentralised and accountable banks and payment processors Sounds like you're saying we need crypto. Decentralized banks? That's exactly the sort of crazy idea that's just not gonna happen outside of crypto. > Speaking of credit card companies: why do they exist?? They provide a useful service. They pay for stuff for you, then you pay them back later. This is great b…

> decentralization => crypto

Banks already are a decentralized system, just not a very good one. I can send a SEPA transfer from any EU account to any other EU account no matter which banks they are with and there isn't a "SCT processing company" that handles that for me, the banks communicate with each other - the system is decentralized. But that transaction takes up to a day for pretty much no reason, so we use payment cards for most things. Those are centralized. If Visa/Mastercard doesn't want to handle my transaction, I'm screwed. If instead cards simply signed an SCT message and my bank refused to process it, I could simply switch banks.

> credit card companies

Yeah, my bad, I should've said payment card companies / card payment processors. For debit card transactions they don't provide any benefit, they are only middlemen between me, the merchant and our respective banks.

Re: Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of the web

#143

Post by OneTimePetes » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 3:19 PM UTC

shapefrog wrote: post #67

busymom0 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every single time there’s a HN discussion about censorship and I comment about how we shouldn’t be okay with censorship of anyone regardless of how offensive they might be or whether or not it’s some private corporation and usually it gets downvoted. When the wind starts blowing the opposite direction, only then do people wake up.

So you demand freedom for all ... except those that are using their freedom in the way you dont like. For the avoidence of doubt, I am talking about the freedom to not have someone in your house / your company platform.

So, if i would manage to besiege the city of rome, conquer it and declare the forum romanum mine, and to throw out all the romans. Does that make writing "Romanes eunt domus" an act, that forbids you forever the usage of my conquered streets? M i the conqueror allowed to sentence a citizen to house-arrest, by defining social negative space?

Re: Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of the web

#144

Post by franga2000 » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 3:20 PM UTC

elzbardico wrote: post #140

franga2000 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How credit card processing hasn't been classified and regulated as a utility is truly baffling to me. Especially with governments explicitly recommending contactless card payments instead of cash during the pandemic and many doing things like taking large bank notes out of circulation for years now. We don't need crazy things like crypto - we need decentralised and accountable banks and payment processors (not that t…

The Brazilian government created an instant payment system that doesn't depend on payment processors. You can send money to anyone in seconds using their tax id number or their phone numbers, it clears in seconds. It is named PIX. All banks implemented it, so, no matter what is your bank you're able to do payments from your smartphone using your banks app. It is so popular and easy to use that even street merchants a…

Awesome! We need more countries implementing systems like that. Once that happens, an international or at least EU standard is hopefully soon to follow.

Re: Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of the web

#145

Post by shartacct » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 3:20 PM UTC

throwawaysea wrote: post #13

Payments should be treated like a public utility services, so that they cannot deny customers or uses that are legal. It is a bad idea to let any private service that is so widespread and fundamental to function as a proxy regulator of speech. This problem was very apparent when Wikileaks faced a payment blockade a decade back ( https://www.commondreams.org/news/2012/07/18/wikileaks-break... ). We are overdue to reig…

No they shouldn't. There are high-risk payment processors that will serve foreign intelligence operations like wikileaks, fascist political donation services, fraud-heavy industries like fiat to crypto onramps and socially regressive businesses like porn. There's no need to regulate low-risk payment processors as the industry is not monopolized in any way and it's trivial to find one that will take your money.

Re: Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of the web

#146

Post by yjftsjthsd-h » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 3:22 PM UTC

elzbardico wrote: post #140

franga2000 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How credit card processing hasn't been classified and regulated as a utility is truly baffling to me. Especially with governments explicitly recommending contactless card payments instead of cash during the pandemic and many doing things like taking large bank notes out of circulation for years now. We don't need crazy things like crypto - we need decentralised and accountable banks and payment processors (not that t…

The Brazilian government created an instant payment system that doesn't depend on payment processors. You can send money to anyone in seconds using their tax id number or their phone numbers, it clears in seconds. It is named PIX. All banks implemented it, so, no matter what is your bank you're able to do payments from your smartphone using your banks app. It is so popular and easy to use that even street merchants a…

How do they deal with fraud/theft?

Re: Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of the web

#147

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 3:25 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #130

I don't think they're that reluctant, honestly. But it goes beyond credit card companies too. It applies to the whole banking system. It will soon be the case where the majority of Americans live in states where recreational cannabis is legal (it was ~1 in 3 last year but NY, NJ and others will push it over). Yet you can't use a credit card to buy cannabis pretty much anywhere AFAIK. Worse, dispensaries have to opera…

I was initially going to say the same thing, but then I reflected on what I saw in the past.

In a very real sense, government required compliance effectively forces banks into a gatekeeper position. And while some BSA enforcers do act in their interest the same any group does ( cops, politicians, IC, doctors ) by extending their reach and influence, others are wary of expanding it beyond current regime ( which is already pretty onerous ).

It does help that banks tend to get very sensitive about some things as they do rely on deposits to survive. In one of the banks I used to work for, teller BSA training included a mention to be sensitive about customers and questions along with a story of a teller, who prodded a little beyond what the customer deemed acceptable and who then proceeded to close the account with 'none of your god damn business'.

What I am saying is that things are only the way they are, because we allow it that way. Cash is still a viable, albeit annoying choice.

And banks have been complacent until now, but the cost of complacency seems to be going up.

All that said, ABA better gets it shit together. Between high compliance burden on banks combined with low to non-existent compliance on fintech startups can quickly amount to real trouble for the banking system in US.

Re: Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of the web

#148

Post by yunesj » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 3:28 PM UTC

HN readers are wrong to think this will be fixed when the government creates a CBDC or regulates payment providers like a utility.

In addition to the government currently blocking transactions from semi-legal industries that should be legal (cannabis), the government has a history of censoring mail mentioning contraceptives (Comstock Laws) and pressuring banks to cut businesses with legal, undesirable industries (Operation Chokepoint). A few weeks ago, an IRS agent at a service center refused to help me because they didn’t like my clothes. (I was wearing a tank top.) This is inevitable when you create government-backed monopolies.

Re: Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of the web

#149

Post by _fat_santa » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 3:28 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #130

I don't think they're that reluctant, honestly. But it goes beyond credit card companies too. It applies to the whole banking system. It will soon be the case where the majority of Americans live in states where recreational cannabis is legal (it was ~1 in 3 last year but NY, NJ and others will push it over). Yet you can't use a credit card to buy cannabis pretty much anywhere AFAIK. Worse, dispensaries have to opera…

Dispensaries are getting wise too. Even though you can't use a credit card anywhere, they have found a way for you to use a debit card. Basically it's just like an ATM withdrawl but they tie it into the checkout flow so to you the customer, its just like you paid with a debit card.

Re: Credit-card firms are becoming reluctant regulators of the web

#150

Post by shapefrog » Mon, Oct 11, 2021, 3:29 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #69

shapefrog wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you demand freedom for all ... except those that are using their freedom in the way you dont like. For the avoidence of doubt, I am talking about the freedom to not have someone in your house / your company platform.

No, they demand a principled balance between the two freedoms, that's independent of the content of the speech. What you're talking about is what's status quo - freedom for private businesses to not serve someone, except when it contradicts certain narratives, at which point it becomes a national news story about bigoted business owners.

> we shouldn’t be okay with censorship of anyone regardless

That is not a balance, that is an absolute position in favour of one side of the coin ... regardless