Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

drive.com.au

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 279 posts

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#141

Post by clouddrover »

anonporridge wrote: post #138
clouddrover wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can have equivalent cyberattacks on power stations and EV charging networks.

Of course. But a key difference is that the electric grid seems to be drastically more decentralized than fuel pipelines. Pipelines for liquid or gaseous fuel have a huge upfront cost and maintenance requirements compared to running power lines, so the incentives are to build them as big as possible. Taking down a power station is certainly a viable attack vector, but the damage caused by losing a single station is d…

And you want to ignore the inconvenient reality that civilization has managed to keep running all this time? It's plainly not the problem you imagine it to be.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#142

Post by belltaco »

WalterBright wrote: post #110
belltaco wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stopping it would be useless, it'd just increase production from oil wells of other countries. They could invest that money into accelerating green technology.

Gotta start somewhere. After all, Norway switching to all-electric cars also won't make a significant reduction in worldwide CO2. Sure, other wells will produce more. But at a higher price. Higher prices encourage use of greener alternatives.

>After all, Norway switching to all-electric cars also won't make a significant reduction in worldwide CO2.

It bootstraps companies like Tesla, and VW's electric cars. That will lead to more CO2 reductions happening sooner.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#143

Post by dan-robertson »

collegeburner wrote: post #137
njovin wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar in California and other states. The states typically tax gasoline and since electrics don't use any they are implementing special fees on electric vehicle purchases to make up for lost revenue. One would think that the savings in pollution (not only for the car itself, but the transport of the fuel, pollution from refineries, etc.) would offset any lost revenue from gas taxes. What makes this really nonsensic…

More the fact that many states fund road work with a gasoline tax, this makes sense since it's got a decent correlation on how much use somebody gets from the roads. Electrics don't do this so states will come up short as more electrics get adopted otherwise.

My understanding is that road damage scales with the fourth power of the weight over the axle but fuel usage does not scale in the same way. In particular, heavy trucks do the most damage and of consumer cars, electric cars do more damage as they are heavier. Of course the people who most require roads to be constructed tend to be people trying to drive to or from their homes rather than large freight carriers who mostly require maintenance of highways.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#144

Post by throwawayboise »

ytdytvhxgydvhh wrote: post #128
_3u10 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, used EVs depreciate quickly. I'm comparing new Tesla Plaids to the C8 Corvette and due to depreciation its looking like the C8 will be much cheaper, and much more fun to drive. The C8 will drop 30k in 5 years according to C6/C7 data, whereas a Plaid will likely drop 70k. If I spend less than $800 a month on fuel the C8 is cheaper. Currently C8s are appreciating their first year, which is really weird. The Model…

> Currently C8s are appreciating their first year, which is really weird. Why is that weird? That seems typical for new, extremely popular cars where supply isn’t meeting demand. It happened years ago with the PT Cruiser, and when Mini (re-)entered the US market. It’s happened with Teslas too. Right now it’s happening with the C8 Corvette and Ford Bronco, which are both really tough to find on dealer lots. In 5 or 10…

That funny about the Mini, because it's such a shit car. I thought it looked like a fun little car but I drove one yesterday for the first time and it was garbage. Interior is crappy lightweight plastic too. Do some research on them and you'll see that they are trouble-prone as well.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#145

Post by throwawayboise »

anonporridge wrote: post #138
clouddrover wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can have equivalent cyberattacks on power stations and EV charging networks.

Of course. But a key difference is that the electric grid seems to be drastically more decentralized than fuel pipelines. Pipelines for liquid or gaseous fuel have a huge upfront cost and maintenance requirements compared to running power lines, so the incentives are to build them as big as possible. Taking down a power station is certainly a viable attack vector, but the damage caused by losing a single station is d…

Do you not remember the massive blackouts in the last 50 years? Entire regions of the USA and Canada have gone dark from time to time. California teters on the brink regularly. Remember last winter's troubles in Texas? It's not really any more stable than fuel distribution IMO.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#146

Post by dredmorbius »

supperburg wrote: post #133
njovin wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar in California and other states. The states typically tax gasoline and since electrics don't use any they are implementing special fees on electric vehicle purchases to make up for lost revenue. One would think that the savings in pollution (not only for the car itself, but the transport of the fuel, pollution from refineries, etc.) would offset any lost revenue from gas taxes. What makes this really nonsensic…

Because in the states if you didn’t do that a bunch of idiots would accuse you of disproportionately taxing the poor since they can’t afford electric cars. Social justice at its finest.

That argument is fairly common across the political spectrum. Your comment reads far better without the unnecessary and divisive last sentence.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#148

Post by dredmorbius »

anonporridge wrote: post #138
clouddrover wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can have equivalent cyberattacks on power stations and EV charging networks.

Of course. But a key difference is that the electric grid seems to be drastically more decentralized than fuel pipelines. Pipelines for liquid or gaseous fuel have a huge upfront cost and maintenance requirements compared to running power lines, so the incentives are to build them as big as possible. Taking down a power station is certainly a viable attack vector, but the damage caused by losing a single station is d…

The electric grid is vulnerabe to widespread and long-lasting outages, and has a history of multiple such events. Texas in the current year (weather and capacity induced), Puerto Rico ongoing following Hurricane Maria in 2017, "rolling blackouts" (induced through manipulation of the energy markets) in 2000, numerous regional blackouts through transmission and distribution failures dating to the 1960s.

Major concerns are SCADA attacks against control systems themselves, or physical attacks against regional substations which could cripple distribution for weeks or months.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#149

Post by throwaway0a5e »

supperburg wrote: post #133
njovin wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar in California and other states. The states typically tax gasoline and since electrics don't use any they are implementing special fees on electric vehicle purchases to make up for lost revenue. One would think that the savings in pollution (not only for the car itself, but the transport of the fuel, pollution from refineries, etc.) would offset any lost revenue from gas taxes. What makes this really nonsensic…

Because in the states if you didn’t do that a bunch of idiots would accuse you of disproportionately taxing the poor since they can’t afford electric cars. Social justice at its finest.

>idiots would accuse you of disproportionately taxing the poor since they can’t afford electric cars.

Are they really idiots if that's the reality of the situation? It's gonna be a long time before EVs are in the beater car price brackets.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#150

Post by r00fus »

ars wrote: post #111
r00fus wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Norway has a sovereign wealth fund (valuation: 1.4T in USD) that is setup specifically for this eventuality. Many large oil exporting countries know the good times won't last, and are planning for it.

> Norway has a sovereign wealth fund (valuation: 1.4T in USD) that is setup specifically for this eventuality. That's not much - $25K per person over 10 years, and with an average income of $70K per person, and something like half of their economy is energy (most if not all social programs are funded from energy production). If oil were to stop tomorrow, they'd have around 10 years before the money runs out. (Maybe a…

There are lots of pushes to move the fund into carbon-neutral or negative investments, which would likely grow as the fossil fuel economy swan song starts.

However, I find it a bit disingenuous to chide Norway which is doing far better than much larger countries like the UK, US or Germany in transitioning to renewables.

I am not worried for Norway (though when the North Atlantic jetbtream shifts they will likely suffer) - I'm far more worried for the poor and marginalized peoples - they will suffer far more.

It's no surprise that thought leaders are worried about climate change impacts. Some will perversely benefit (politicians who are anti-immigration will gain populartiy because climate migrations are clearly defined by US defense dept as a likely result from climate change). Others may benefit by providing mitigating solutions to climate change itself that alter economies.

Post reply on HN