The Winners of Remote Work • Hacker News Board

Re: The Winners of Remote Work

#141

Post by justaguy88 » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 7:28 PM UTC

masterof0 wrote: post #122

Honest question: Why would a company pay an US based engineer a high salary when they can get a team overseas equally or even more qualified (whatever metrics you prefer to use: leetcode count, school ranking, GitHub stars, etc...) for the same amount of money or less? I understand if you are Raedon/Being/... Wouldn't remote work at least in the US force local engineer to accept less money for their work?

If they can put them in US-compatible timezone, sure.

But coordinating teams across anything more than a 4-ish hour difference is a total pain

Re: The Winners of Remote Work

#142

Post by lthornberry » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 7:29 PM UTC

ThalesX wrote: post #118

joelbluminator wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Law and accountancy is much harder to outsource than programming. You usually have to be U.S certified so thats pretty much protected.

You have the Ubers and AirBnBs circumventing laws around the world and you think it's hard to optimize for a remote law and accountancy practice? Just have offshore remoters do the bulk of work and have it signed by a certified local lawyer / accountant.

Certified lawyers/accountants have ethical compliance responsibilities. They should be doing meaningful review, not just "signing off." There are savings to be realized, but they are more limited than one might think. The difference here is that there are professional associations with both the ability to discipline people who don't follow the rules, and a deep interest in doing so.

Re: The Winners of Remote Work

#143

Post by seanmcdirmid » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 7:35 PM UTC

masterof0 wrote: post #122

Honest question: Why would a company pay an US based engineer a high salary when they can get a team overseas equally or even more qualified (whatever metrics you prefer to use: leetcode count, school ranking, GitHub stars, etc...) for the same amount of money or less? I understand if you are Raedon/Being/... Wouldn't remote work at least in the US force local engineer to accept less money for their work?

> when they can get a team overseas equally or even more qualified (whatever metrics you prefer to use: leetcode count, school ranking, GitHub stars, etc...)

Those people are already in demand and oversubscribed, so the US-based engineers are still in demand.

Yes, companies would love to pay less, but at the high end it is already a world market for talent.

Re: The Winners of Remote Work

#144

Post by justaguy88 » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 7:35 PM UTC

gringoDan wrote: post #82

This makes complete sense – just another example of power law dynamics of the internet. Short-term, we're going to see companies pursue a remote model in order to attract talent. This will be great for employees; live in Colorado, go on hikes and have a great lifestyle while commanding a SF salary! Longer-term, companies are going to realize that (except for the top ~10% of performers, who will always command a high…

Time zone 'compatibility' is extremely important

Happily hire north/south, but too many hours east/west and people have to give up off-time just to have regular meetings

Re: The Winners of Remote Work

#145

Post by justaguy88 » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 7:36 PM UTC

joelbluminator wrote: post #104

Sevii wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The focus on programmers as the vanguard of the remote work trend distracts from what could be the real change the outsourcing of white collar work. Why do we need our lawyers, accountants, human resources and other back office employees to be American when Chilean workers will do those jobs for half or a quarter the pay? What outsourcing did to manufacturing jobs, remote work may do to white collar jobs.

Law and accountancy is much harder to outsource than programming. You usually have to be U.S certified so thats pretty much protected.

You could set up a US Law school in another country

Re: The Winners of Remote Work

#146

Post by sebular » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 7:40 PM UTC

masterof0 wrote: post #122

Honest question: Why would a company pay an US based engineer a high salary when they can get a team overseas equally or even more qualified (whatever metrics you prefer to use: leetcode count, school ranking, GitHub stars, etc...) for the same amount of money or less? I understand if you are Raedon/Being/... Wouldn't remote work at least in the US force local engineer to accept less money for their work?

The simple answer is that "whatever metrics you prefer to use" include qualifications that overseas engineers often cannot satisfy.

Great engineers are human members of a team, and there's more to a team member than their LeetCode score (seriously?) and/or how many GitHub stars they've obtained.

Just some examples off the top of my head:

If you're building products to target US-based consumers, you don't need to provide as much contextual information to a US-based engineer. They will have a stronger intuitive understanding of the product, and there's a better chance that they'll know when it's appropriate to push back and question something. There's a reduced cognitive load in communicating with them. And of course, there's a better chance you're going to enjoy spending hours working with them.

Re: The Winners of Remote Work

#147

Post by babesh » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 7:41 PM UTC

masterof0 wrote: post #122

Honest question: Why would a company pay an US based engineer a high salary when they can get a team overseas equally or even more qualified (whatever metrics you prefer to use: leetcode count, school ranking, GitHub stars, etc...) for the same amount of money or less? I understand if you are Raedon/Being/... Wouldn't remote work at least in the US force local engineer to accept less money for their work?

I would estimate that well over half of Silicon Valley engineers are foreign born. If you add the non local US engineers, you are probably at over 90%.

Those equally or more qualified overseas people working for little were in short supply. Why would they work for you for pennies when they could move to Silicon Valley, make tons more, and have potential for much, much more?

With remote work, what makes you think that the market will be inefficient? The overseas equally or more qualified will demand more money and look for more opportunities.

These companies that adjust pay based on location remind me of the wage fixing scheme led by Steve Jobs. Once Mark Zuckerberg refused to play along, compensation exploded. Companies that pay the best for remote workers will have their pick of the best.

Re: The Winners of Remote Work

#148

Post by ianmcgowan » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 7:41 PM UTC

masterof0 wrote: post #122

Honest question: Why would a company pay an US based engineer a high salary when they can get a team overseas equally or even more qualified (whatever metrics you prefer to use: leetcode count, school ranking, GitHub stars, etc...) for the same amount of money or less? I understand if you are Raedon/Being/... Wouldn't remote work at least in the US force local engineer to accept less money for their work?

Many big companies do exactly that, and have done since long before Covid. I work with IT dev, support, and QA groups in India and the Philippines and it definitely can be made to work. There are the usual frustrations though, mostly around timezones and some cultural differences.

Re: The Winners of Remote Work

#149

Post by closeparen » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 7:42 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #39

francisofascii wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To use an example from the parent post, local, cyclist spin trainers are losing, since people are simply using the Pelaton trainers at home, rather than going to an "in person" spin class. The local, small time trainer can't compete with a celebrity/model trainer. Similar to how TV and movies hurt local theatres. In the end, it is more efficient, but there are "losers".

I'm not convinced a lot of these trends stick post-COVID. A lot of people like the in-person part of the spin class and probably would prefer it to the highly-paid video pro. That said, behaviors will have changed for a lot of things over the course of a couple of years. People have developed new habits. Not all of that--including going into an office five days a week in many cases--are going to just reset.

What reason do we have to believe that there will be a point in the future with less COVID risk than there is today? By what mechanism will that arise?

Re: The Winners of Remote Work

#150

Post by ThalesX » Tue, Aug 31, 2021, 7:46 PM UTC

lthornberry wrote: post #142

ThalesX wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have the Ubers and AirBnBs circumventing laws around the world and you think it's hard to optimize for a remote law and accountancy practice? Just have offshore remoters do the bulk of work and have it signed by a certified local lawyer / accountant.

Certified lawyers/accountants have ethical compliance responsibilities. They should be doing meaningful review, not just "signing off." There are savings to be realized, but they are more limited than one might think. The difference here is that there are professional associations with both the ability to discipline people who don't follow the rules, and a deep interest in doing so.

You can do meaningful reviews of folders others have prepared for you, others that get paid pennies compared to what you would pay locally.

> The difference here is that there are professional associations with both the ability to discipline people who don't follow the rules, and a deep interest in doing so.

If I understand correctly, then indeed yes, it would be hard to disrupt this space. But I have a feeling someone smarter than me, perhaps even yourself, will find a way to go around it. At one point taxi medallions seemed unmovable.