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The rise of user-hostile software

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Re: The rise of user-hostile software

#141

Post by zelon88 »

zksmk wrote: post #34
TeMPOraL wrote: post #26

Agreed on all points. Interesting to see this: > You can argue that all of this has existed for a very long time, back from the days of all kinds of toolbars and extensions that created multiple levels of address bar nesting in your web browser and taskbar. What I find ironic about the whole situation is, back then it was universally known that those toolbars and extensions are distributed by assholes. The whole soft…

>Something weird happened over the past decade. I blame it on social media monopolies, or at least effective monopolies, oligopolies, and the network effect. Once everyone was sucked into these silos and unable to leave they could do whatever they wanted with the user experience without repercussions. And once everyone was used to it and took it as a given it was only a matter of time before it leaked even into deskt…

> which means the rise of Linux desktop or Fediverse platforms, and that's gonna be a while, but not impossible.

I like to hope you're right, but I don't believe you are.

Most people don't want to learn more about tech. They just want tech to be intuitive enough to pick up and use.

The mobile market appeared because Windows is too big and cumbersome. That's why people advertised it as a skill on their resume. It isn't fun. Windows is a chore to most people.

Nobody puts "experienced Android user" on their resume because it is expected that just by being alive you should be capable of using every function of an Android device. Very little functionality is abstracted away into 20 year old UI's or shell commands. There is a button for everything, and the button makes sense.

So if Windows didn't stand a chance, there is absolutely zero chance Linux will catch on at the scale it needs to for your post to come true.

Re: The rise of user-hostile software

#142

Post by mschuster91 »

erhk wrote: post #128
mschuster91 wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you can’t sell software you have to monetize in other ways. For a piece of hardware I buy at a store I'd expect that the price I paid for it is sufficient to not require further monetization - mandatory cloud services (e.g. a web-available surveillance camera) excepted. Anyway, there is another cause: continuous backward-compatibility breaks from OSes. Windows is ... relatively decent in that the only things tha…

If adware makes money, then even hardware is impacted since you can now undercut competitors. Two mice, essentially the same but $40 price tag. Which one do you buy? Can you smell the bloatware on them in the store?

> Which one do you buy? Can you smell the bloatware on them in the store?

This is why I prefer to shop online or at least do a quick search on the internet to show potential issues.

On the other hand, I would really prefer a requirement for products that are sold in a physical store to be reviewed by a government-run, independent organization on build quality and sustainability, and that this review be presented or easily accessible in a store next to the product.

We already have such a requirement in the EU for electricity usage of appliances, it could be extended to small electronic devices.

Re: The rise of user-hostile software

#143

Post by thefr0g »

TheCapn wrote: post #110

I think the entire argument falls apart at the Flowchart presented: "Would any user benefit from this?" Why? Because its trivially easy to say those shitty additions help a user, satisfying the check and throwing you into "Build It" territory. Do users know how to navigate their local network to upload data to a folder? Not all of them, hook it into a cloud service. Do all users know how to download the right BIOS fo…

> but that comes with the obvious drawbacks of having a higher barrier to entry.

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Many governments even raise the barrier of entry artificially for dangerous activitys by requiring licenses or training to operate heavy machinery, handle dangerous chemicals, install electricity etc. Using technology sometimes requires knowledge about the inner workings so users will not accidentally hurt others or themselves. Imo developers shouldn't infantilize users but give them tools to work with. Of course this naturally works better with FLOSS since there (more often than not) is no monetary incentive to get absolutely everyone on to use it.

Re: The rise of user-hostile software

#144

Post by slfnflctd »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #100
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What they want, first and foremost, is to not be a generic hardware manufacturer. Every once in a while I day dream about starting a company[0] called something like "Generic Products" where all we do is make the most basic bog-standard things with no extra garbage or marketing bullshit, striving to have as few different models as possible. Amazon basics and https://xkcd.com/993/ are similar ideas. [0] Never let me…

We can do a joint venture with my occasional day-dream company, which would sell appliances designed for longevity - e.g. an electric kettle or hairdryer designed to last you a 100 years. Featuring generic packaging[0], lifetime warranty, and extreme repairability - with CAD and circuit diagrams in the box, and spare parts available for as long as they can be manufactured. If any substantial change happens over the y…

If we are ever able to significantly increase human lifespans and/or birth rates decline, I wouldn't be surprised to see a business model similar to this eventually outcompete all others.

Even with the brief few decades of existence we might get (if we're lucky) now, the planned obsolescence and bullshit, mind-cluttering marketing gets really old for most of us well before we're halfway through it.

Re: The rise of user-hostile software

#145

Post by southerntofu »

the_third_wave wrote: post #69
southerntofu wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This seems like a lot of jumping to conclusions to fit your pre-determined opinion of them. Unfortunately, that's the opposite. I was very interested in suckless some years ago, and was very disappointed to learn their tolerance (if not sympathy) towards nazism. > They have said they're not, so we should take them at face value. Denying affiliation is a classic strategy in psyops. The alt-right and manosphere have…

> Denying affiliation is a classic strategy in psyops. The alt-right and manosphere have established entire PR strategies based on that. The same is true for attributing tainted characteristics to your ideological opponents - just call them "nazi" or "fascist" and anything goes. If they deny that they are nazis or fascists, well, that just proves they are nazis or fascists. This is called a Kafka trap. It is the same…

[flagged]

Re: The rise of user-hostile software

#146

Post by thefr0g »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #93
john61 wrote: post #70

Just use free software. Stallman was right.

Unfortunately: - A lot of free software either sucks or is entirely non-existent for many use cases - Free software is not entirely immune to this behavior either

The point is that with FLOSS you can fix both of these problems yourself.

Re: The rise of user-hostile software

#147

Post by foxfluff »

mikro2nd wrote: post #8

I do think the flowchart needs one more diamond (if-statement): Between "Would any user benefit from this?" and "Build it" there's another state. "Would other users be harmed/disadvantaged by this?" (and draw the obvious lines out of that...)

"Would some users benefit from it?"

-> build it and allow them to opt in if they like it.

Re: The rise of user-hostile software

#148

Post by southerntofu »

FeepingCreature wrote: post #38
fmajid wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, I was unaware of this subtext, thanks for exposing it. Germany has very tough laws against glorifying the Nazi regime, so if they are Germans it’s not just sick humor but deliberate. Though Suckless vs. Poetering seems like a Hitler vs. Stalin evil-fights-evil situation best avoided by giving both a wide berth.

Germany does not have laws against Nazi jokes.

When is a joke a joke and when does it stop being a joke? Alt-right types are famous in their attempt to blur the lines by claiming sarcasm or dark humor. To be clear, that's fine in certain contexts: if you're with people you know well, and with whom you have a mutual understanding of when to understand the exact opposite of what just came out of your mouth.

However, when you're doing that with strangers in public, for example on the Internet, you're just sending the wrong message and building a space where such takes are normalized. See also "cultural hegemony".

Re: The rise of user-hostile software

#149

Post by sneak »

marcodiego wrote: post #67
TeMPOraL wrote: post #26

Agreed on all points. Interesting to see this: > You can argue that all of this has existed for a very long time, back from the days of all kinds of toolbars and extensions that created multiple levels of address bar nesting in your web browser and taskbar. What I find ironic about the whole situation is, back then it was universally known that those toolbars and extensions are distributed by assholes. The whole soft…

> most mainstream software from renowned companies should be [...] classified as malware. Most FLOSS has not fallen in this category.

But even a significant portion of FLOSS can be legitimately called spyware. Firefox, Chromium, Docker (although Docker Desktop is no longer open source), Homebrew, Mattermost, Netdata, Bitwarden - all of these are common, popular FLOSS that embed spyware, oftentimes operating silently (other than a little notice at install time that the authors think constitutes informed consent).

The spyware epidemic is real, and FLOSS is not immune.

Re: The rise of user-hostile software

#150

Post by thinkharderdev »

TheCapn wrote: post #110

I think the entire argument falls apart at the Flowchart presented: "Would any user benefit from this?" Why? Because its trivially easy to say those shitty additions help a user, satisfying the check and throwing you into "Build It" territory. Do users know how to navigate their local network to upload data to a folder? Not all of them, hook it into a cloud service. Do all users know how to download the right BIOS fo…

Yeah, I had a broadly similar reaction. Some of the things the author points out seem like genuine attempts to make software less user hostile by adopting solutions that "just work" across all platforms even if the users have no technical knowledge. I think a lot of engineers think of user friendly as "I can configure it any way I want" whereas for the vast majority of people user-friendly means "just do what I think it should do and don't ask me any questions I don't understand".
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