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Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

lowtechmagazine.com

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Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#141

Post by Tade0 »

pleb_nz wrote: post #97
tootie wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's frequently much more energy intensive too. Cars are a lot more efficient than horses and dishwashers are more efficient than hand washing.

I read somewhere modern people spend the same amount of time doing chores as someone before electricity. It wouldn't surprise me if it were that far off the truth. We own so much more and are told we need things when in reality maybe we don't?

My grandmother(aged 92) still washes by hand - both the clothes and dishes.

It takes a considerable amount of time.

And before anyone asks she raised five children like that and I'm not the one to try to convince someone who on top of that lived through WWII to change anything in their life.

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#142

Post by ciconia »

IlliOnato wrote: post #37

I read the whole article with sympathetic interest, until the conclusion: > One way to solve the problem of high power devices is simply not to use them -- this is the approach that's followed in sailboats, motorhomes and caravans > Obviously, this strategy implies a change in our way of life. It would mean that electricity is used only for lighting, electronics and refrigeration, while non-electric alternatives are…

I think it's a perfectly reasonable conclusion. Supposing a future with 0 to low fossil energy usage, we'll all need to adjust.

If you want governments to do whatever needs to be done to limit climate change, you also need to be willing to "pay the price" in the form of reduced material comfort.

Besides, there are quite a few people (a big chunk of the world population actually) living today without dish washers, without microwaves and without coffee machines.

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#143

Post by kwhitefoot »

function_seven wrote: post #44
IlliOnato wrote: post #37

I read the whole article with sympathetic interest, until the conclusion: > One way to solve the problem of high power devices is simply not to use them -- this is the approach that's followed in sailboats, motorhomes and caravans > Obviously, this strategy implies a change in our way of life. It would mean that electricity is used only for lighting, electronics and refrigeration, while non-electric alternatives are…

I get unreasonably angry when Victorian cosplayers think they've found the solution to our wasteful modern life. Simply eschew modern conveniences and spend hours each week beating your clothes against a rock! Simple , instead of grocery shopping twice a month, ditch that wasteful freezer and walk to the farmers' market down the block before dinner each night. Was it cloudy yesterday? Simple! , take a whore-bath¹ at…

> instead of grocery shopping twice a month, ditch that wasteful freezer and walk to the farmers' market

Middle class Victorians, in England at least, had things delivered. I imagine that quite a lot of cosplay characters are middle class.

In fact food delivered to homes of all types was a normal feature of life in England when I was a child in the 50s and 60s. Milk, eggs, etc., every weekday morning delivered directly to the door before breakfast, grocery van came to the street once a week, bread van twice, another van came a bit less often selling lemonade and other drinks.

Of course these services were not universally available, we were lucky to live in a moderately affluent town with a prosperous working class.

We didn't have a freezer until 1966 and I'm not sure that we suffered from the lack. But once everyone had both a freezer and a car those services became unprofitable and eventually disappeared.

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#144

Post by maxerickson »

JohnWhigham wrote: post #124
nielsbot wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how dish washers are more efficient than hand washing? Is it about water use? What if you don’t run the water while you soap your dishes and only rinse them in a rinse tub?

If you're careful about water usage and use cold water, you'll always beat a dishwasher. Another thing people often forget about dishwashers: you're supposed to pre-scrub the hard shit off the dishes. Well, you just did half the mechanical work yourself, why not finish it? I think part of it can also be (at least for me) upbringing. We always handwashed our dishes, and only used the dishwasher a couple times per year…

Modern dishwashers encourage you to do nothing more than scrape off any leftover food, there's not "you are supposed to scrub".

(essentially, the instructions are to remove the same things from the dishes you would remove if hand washing them in a sink with no disposal...)

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#145

Post by brobdingnagians »

kwhitefoot wrote: post #143
function_seven wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get unreasonably angry when Victorian cosplayers think they've found the solution to our wasteful modern life. Simply eschew modern conveniences and spend hours each week beating your clothes against a rock! Simple , instead of grocery shopping twice a month, ditch that wasteful freezer and walk to the farmers' market down the block before dinner each night. Was it cloudy yesterday? Simple! , take a whore-bath¹ at…

> instead of grocery shopping twice a month, ditch that wasteful freezer and walk to the farmers' market Middle class Victorians, in England at least, had things delivered. I imagine that quite a lot of cosplay characters are middle class. In fact food delivered to homes of all types was a normal feature of life in England when I was a child in the 50s and 60s. Milk, eggs, etc., every weekday morning delivered direct…

> Of course these services were not universally available, we were lucky to live in a moderately affluent town with a prosperous working class.

I think that's key. The wealthy live well enough in pretty much any society. It is the poor who often have the greatest to gain (and lose, when mis-applied) from technological innovations and from having them become widespread.

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#146

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

ashtonkem wrote: post #55
IlliOnato wrote: post #37

I read the whole article with sympathetic interest, until the conclusion: > One way to solve the problem of high power devices is simply not to use them -- this is the approach that's followed in sailboats, motorhomes and caravans > Obviously, this strategy implies a change in our way of life. It would mean that electricity is used only for lighting, electronics and refrigeration, while non-electric alternatives are…

You do have to wonder if they’re confused on why this isn’t persuasive to normal people. Go cook outside on a rocket stove[0] and washing clothes by hand every day? Come on. Meanwhile the thing that has actually gotten people out of their cars is the ebike. It turns out it’s much more effective to produce a more convenient and comfortable solution for people rather than just demand that they go back a century or two…

> Meanwhile the thing that has actually gotten people out of their cars is the ebike.

This is not my experience. People just put their ebike on a rack and drive it somewhere to ride it for fun.

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#147

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

ciconia wrote: post #142
IlliOnato wrote: post #37

I read the whole article with sympathetic interest, until the conclusion: > One way to solve the problem of high power devices is simply not to use them -- this is the approach that's followed in sailboats, motorhomes and caravans > Obviously, this strategy implies a change in our way of life. It would mean that electricity is used only for lighting, electronics and refrigeration, while non-electric alternatives are…

I think it's a perfectly reasonable conclusion. Supposing a future with 0 to low fossil energy usage, we'll all need to adjust. If you want governments to do whatever needs to be done to limit climate change, you also need to be willing to "pay the price" in the form of reduced material comfort. Besides, there are quite a few people (a big chunk of the world population actually) living today without dish washers, wit…

> If you want governments to do whatever needs to be done to limit climate change, you also need to be willing to "pay the price" in the form of reduced material comfort.

Which is why nothing significant has been done, nor will it.

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#148

Post by nikisweeting »

axiolite wrote: post #32
nikisweeting wrote: post #24

There is a line that’s incorrect in the article: > AC won, mainly because of its higher efficiency when transported over long distances. AC is not actually more efficient at long distance transmission, it’s less efficient due to the skin effect. AC is just easier to convert.

It's not "incorrect". They literally explain the reason why they say it is so in the very next sentence. Only taken out of context does it appear incorrect.

The sentences after explain why higher voltage is more efficient than lower, they don’t say anything about AC vs DC efficiency. The Skin Effect is also not mentioned anywhere in the article.

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#149

Post by da_big_ghey »

maxerickson wrote: post #144
JohnWhigham wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're careful about water usage and use cold water, you'll always beat a dishwasher. Another thing people often forget about dishwashers: you're supposed to pre-scrub the hard shit off the dishes. Well, you just did half the mechanical work yourself, why not finish it? I think part of it can also be (at least for me) upbringing. We always handwashed our dishes, and only used the dishwasher a couple times per year…

Modern dishwashers encourage you to do nothing more than scrape off any leftover food, there's not "you are supposed to scrub". (essentially, the instructions are to remove the same things from the dishes you would remove if hand washing them in a sink with no disposal...)

These are dishwasher about 20 years ago not modern. Modern dishwashers are so "efficient" that they are not really removing much. Often I am finding dished come back out also dirty after, so now I spend more water and time on a hand wash again.

Re: Slow Electricity: The Return of DC Power? (2016)

#150

Post by jamincan »

dijit wrote: post #134
JohnWhigham wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're careful about water usage and use cold water, you'll always beat a dishwasher. Another thing people often forget about dishwashers: you're supposed to pre-scrub the hard shit off the dishes. Well, you just did half the mechanical work yourself, why not finish it? I think part of it can also be (at least for me) upbringing. We always handwashed our dishes, and only used the dishwasher a couple times per year…

I grew up handwashing too but I disagree with your assertion. Firstly, you can't wash with cold water because soap doesn't activate with cold water, hot water also kills bacteria and helps cut through grease. Fats themselves are hydrophobic and without activated soap you wont get them off... enjoy your "filmy" dishes. Second, humans expend a lot more energy than you think. The act of standing and using our arms relea…

Humans are expending energy regardless of whether they're washing dishes or not. The question is how much extra energy they expend when washing dishes over whatever they might do otherwise.
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