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YouTube suspends Rand Paul for seven days

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Re: YouTube suspends Rand Paul for seven days

#141

Post by matz1 »

andybak wrote: post #140
matz1 wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But it's no big deal. It's no big deal for you, fine. I acknowledge that but It is a big deal for me. >I'm a grown up and I deal with it because it's a good thing to do for other people. well not to me, when you wearing mask when interacting with me you are not doing a good thing for me. I'm much prefer for you to not wear mask when you interact with me but still I wouldn't force you. Its also one of the reason for…

> well not to me, when you wearing mask when interacting with me you are not doing a good thing for me. Yes I am. I am reducing the chance of infection passing between us. The degree to which I'm reducing the chance is uncertain (which is the original point under discussion). I think we probably won't get any further benefit from this discussion. I've lost patience with a lot of people over this. I find it slightly d…

>Yes I am. I am reducing the chance of infection passing between us.

No, you think you are doing good for me but reducing the chance of infection passing is not a concern for me at all so its not doing any good for me.

>I think we probably won't get any further benefit from this discussion. I've lost patience with a lot of people over this. I find it slightly depressing that this has become the identity issue it has.

Not surprising because you dismissing other people concern and treat it as 'not big deal'.

Re: YouTube suspends Rand Paul for seven days

#142

Post by lamontcg »

cvwright wrote: post #30
corndoge wrote: post #3

> YouTube indicated that examples of the offending content in the video included the line: “Most of the masks you get over the counter don’t work. They don’t prevent infection.” > It also included the quote: “Trying to shape human behavior isn’t the same as following the actual science which tells us that cloth masks don’t work.” Regardless of what you think about YouTube's misinformation policy, I don't think this i…

My wife and I were looking into traveling from the US to Europe this summer, if the borders had opened up earlier. At the time, Germany was not allowing cloth masks on public transport. N95, surgical masks, or stay home. So here we have a sitting US senator being censored for agreeing with the German health authorities. WTF?!?

The German health authorities were making the argument that cloth masks weren't good enough if you thought that wearing them meant that you could increase your risk exposure.

He's arguing they just don't work and nobody should bother with them at all.

The German authorities would agree that if you have to go out to buy food you're better off wearing a mask than none at all. Rand Paul would disagree.

Those are two different arguments about the efficacy of masks.

Re: YouTube suspends Rand Paul for seven days

#143

Post by chlodwig »

andybak wrote: post #118
chlodwig wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wearing masks is usually only a minor inconvenience. It's a minor inconvenience at the grocery store. It's a major inconvenience to wear one at gyms. It's a major inconvenience with regards to socializing with friends (a core human need), I really hate not being able to read other people's facial expressions when I talk to them. It's a major inconvenience to require it at schools. It's horrible for kids not to be abl…

I think I captured most of that in my use of the word "usually".

No the word "usually" does not capture that at all. I and a lot of other people spend a lot more time at the office, at the gym, at school, at entertainment venues with friends than we spend at grocery stores.

Re: YouTube suspends Rand Paul for seven days

#144

Post by chlodwig »

ryandrake wrote: post #124
kube-system wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If he meant that "cloth masks aren't good enough " he could have said that. But he's a senator. His statement was a dog whistle to his base. They're not looking for an argument that people should be wearing N95s, they want to discredit all masking. The word "prevent" is a red herring -- nothing is 100% -- the goal is to decrease infection, not prevent it.

The phrases "doesn't work" and "doesn't prevent" have become staples of the COVID disinformation toolkit. Anything that is not exactly 100% effective transforms into "doesn't work" in the narrative. Educated experts will never say something is 100% effective, so this is always an easy way for detractors to "prove" that the experts agree XYZ doesn't work. EDIT: Other examples: Some people have gotten pregnant while on…

Is it disinformation to say "the rythmn method is not an effective form of birth control"?

Or is it disinformation to say, "the rythmn method is an effective form of birth control"?

Re: YouTube suspends Rand Paul for seven days

#145

Post by tzs »

dublin wrote: post #129
ryandrake wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The phrases "doesn't work" and "doesn't prevent" have become staples of the COVID disinformation toolkit. Anything that is not exactly 100% effective transforms into "doesn't work" in the narrative. Educated experts will never say something is 100% effective, so this is always an easy way for detractors to "prove" that the experts agree XYZ doesn't work. EDIT: Other examples: Some people have gotten pregnant while on…

Even the pores in an N95 mask are not small enough to prevent viral transmission, so the actual science says your magic mask talisman is voodoo bullshit. People are even starting to do their own tests to show the impact of mask mandates on children, who have never been at significant risk from this virus, anyway: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul5E5BUrII4

> Even the pores in an N95 mask are not small enough to prevent viral transmission, so the actual science says your magic mask talisman is voodoo bullshit

There are at least five mechanisms by which a filter can stop particles from getting through. Only one of them depends on the gaps being smaller than the particles.

Briefly,

1. Big particles don't fit between the fibers of the filter. Think fish in a fish net. This is called sieving.

2. Particles too small for sieving but heavier than the surrounding flow don't make the turns as well as the surrounding flow when the flow goes around the fibers. The particles can get embedded in the fibers. This mechanism is called inertial impaction.

3. The smallest might be too small to actually be affected much by the flow of the surrounding fluid through the filter. The move by diffusion, and many will randomly hit the fibers and get stuck.

4. Particles too big for diffusion but too light for inertial impaction still can run into fibers and get stuck. This is called interception.

5. Some filters have an electrostatic charge which can help trap particles.

The effectiveness of sieving, inertial impaction, and interception all follow S shaped curves that start out low for small particles, then at some point start rising, and then level out. The sieving curve's rise is almost vertical. The rise for inertial impaction is steep but not nearly as steep as it is for sieving. The curve for interception's rise is much more relaxed.

The effectiveness for diffusion goes the other way. Much more effective for very small particles, then above some size drops down and is low from then one.

When you put all these together, you get a curve that is effective at the small end, and at some point as size goes up effectiveness drops, reaching a minimum, and then rises again to reach high effectiveness for particles above some certain size.

More detail here [1].

[1] http://donaldsonaerospace-defense.com/library/files/document...

Re: YouTube suspends Rand Paul for seven days

#146

Post by fighterpilot »

vlovich123 wrote: post #53

Took a bit of searching to find Paul’s statement where he claims to have support from studies. Does anyone know which studies these are? > A Danish study of 6000 participants found that wearing a surgical mask did not significantly reduce a person's risk of COVID-19 infection, compared to the risks facing those who did not wear masks. > And a Vietnamese study of 1600 participants found that cloth masks allow for 97%…

That Danish study only had about 120 people infected overall (and over 1000 drop out of the study midway). So it's not really N=6000, it's N=120, which is tiny.

The evidence from RCTs is way too preliminary to draw any conclusions. The best evidence so far is from studies that directly measure whether a mask can block aerosols, and those results are very compelling.

We do need more and larger RCTs though.

Re: YouTube suspends Rand Paul for seven days

#147

Post by kube-system »

chlodwig wrote: post #144
ryandrake wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The phrases "doesn't work" and "doesn't prevent" have become staples of the COVID disinformation toolkit. Anything that is not exactly 100% effective transforms into "doesn't work" in the narrative. Educated experts will never say something is 100% effective, so this is always an easy way for detractors to "prove" that the experts agree XYZ doesn't work. EDIT: Other examples: Some people have gotten pregnant while on…

Is it disinformation to say "the rythmn method is not an effective form of birth control"? Or is it disinformation to say, "the rythmn method is an effective form of birth control"?

Context and intent is important. The CDC describes that method as "Least Effective".

https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/unintendedpregnancy/p...

If we had no other method, then it might be reasonable to call it effective, in comparison to doing nothing. Given that better options exist, it is not very reasonable to call it effective without qualification.

If someone chooses to intentionally reduce a conversation to an "effective/ineffective" dichotomy to deliberately mislead or obscure conversations, then it might be disinformation. Disinformation can consist entirely of factual statements.

Re: YouTube suspends Rand Paul for seven days

#148

Post by threatofrain »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #15
corndoge wrote: post #3

> YouTube indicated that examples of the offending content in the video included the line: “Most of the masks you get over the counter don’t work. They don’t prevent infection.” > It also included the quote: “Trying to shape human behavior isn’t the same as following the actual science which tells us that cloth masks don’t work.” Regardless of what you think about YouTube's misinformation policy, I don't think this i…

> Seeing platforms control the narrative to this extent is truly fascinating. I never thought it would be as overt as it is. Remember the Hunter Biden's laptop story?

Rudy Giuliani and Tucker Carlson claimed to have first-hand access to the information; Tucker Carlson also said that he doesn't wish to reveal any further information because he didn't want to kick a man who was already down.

I remember when people were saying The Intercept was censoring Glenn Greenwald at the publication he co-founded for not jumping on the Hunter Biden story. In retrospect they made the right call to avoid joining their outlet's credibility with the fact that Fox News personalities could, at any time, just decide not to release information on the alleged basis of not kicking a man when he's down.

Re: YouTube suspends Rand Paul for seven days

#149

Post by fighterpilot »

Someone1234 wrote: post #112
imnotreallynew wrote: post #64

What I find particularly funny about the mask conversation is that if you remember way back to March-July 2020, if you tried to buy a box of surgical face masks on Amazon, there was a large, bold warning in the top description that said “does not prevent the spread of viruses”. The reason for this was the FDA, which regulates masks, clearly held the position that face masks were for preventing transmission of large d…

So your point is that a federal agency got more data and updated its guidance inline with that data? That's what they're meant to do...

Their point is that the official stance can easily be wrong, which calls into question whether it's a good idea to silence people who are questioning it, which is what many were doing on social media in early 2020 when the official stance was that masks don't work.

Re: YouTube suspends Rand Paul for seven days

#150

Post by jacquesm »

danhak wrote: post #68
gameswithgo wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has been data showing areas with greater mask compliance have slower infection rates.

I'd bet that areas with greater mask compliance also have greater compliance with social distancing and other, more effective mitigation measures.

Do you realize you are now arguing against yourself in the same thread?
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