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Vue.js is Wikimedia Foundation's future JavaScript framework

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Re: Vue.js is Wikimedia Foundation's future JavaScript framework

#141

Post by lmm »

masklinn wrote: post #127
lmm wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Templating is the wrong approach. Component-based approaches where you use polymorphism rather than putting logic in your templates are much better. Look at Wicket for a HTML UI framework done right, IMO.

People like templates, and the clear and declarative correspondence between input and output. You can write React without using JSX, and I assume Vue without templates, but unless the components system has a declarative layer so thin it might as well be templates (e.g. elm, or clojure’s hiccup) and it is entirely expression based, they’ll want templates. Wicket looks like absolute nonsense of the worst kind. It compl…

> People like templates, and the clear and declarative correspondence between input and output.

You don't get that clear correspondence if you can have logic in your templates, and even supposedly simple expression languages in templates somehow always end up growing ifs, looping constructs and so on. Plain HTML fragments are good, but they need to be kept absolutely simple.

> Wicket looks like absolute nonsense of the worst kind. It completely reminds me of Struts and Spring and friends, and that is not a positive comparison.

I don't understand your position at all. The problems of Struts and Spring are the problems of templates only more so - if I were to make a spectrum I'd have Struts (and Tapestry) at one end, Wicket (and hiccup) at the other, and traditional templates somewhere in the middle.

Re: Vue.js is Wikimedia Foundation's future JavaScript framework

#142

Post by cout »

rank0 wrote: post #102

Am I the only one who still has a preference for vanilla js? Maybe it’s just my use cases, but every time I try to use a high level framework like vue or react I am immediately bogged down by unnecessary abstraction and complexity. Again, I’m no UI dev so please correct me if I’m wrong! I have pretty simple needs for web app UI usually…I’m not trying to build Facebook. Why do I need react/vue/whatever?

I'm somewhat in agreement with you. My experience was vanilla js first, then jquery, then angularjs. When I first used angularjs I was annoyed by having to learn about providers and services and factories and an alien templating system. But for all its questionable design decisions, it does provide one very significant benefit: composability.

Jquery had wonderful composability through its plugin system. If I want a tree widget, I just go to the jquery website and find one. (And of course you can do the same thing with vanilla js, but where are you going to go to find a tree widget if you don't want to build one yourself?)

The problem with jquery was that the "glue" was procedural javascript. That made it very difficult to use it from an html editor. With newer frameworks, the templating system is the glue. Where angular/react/vue/others differ is what that glue looks like.

So yeah, you can do all the same stuff with vanilla js that you can do with a framework, but you lose composability of widgets out of the box, and if you have composability, then you've just built a framework.

Re: Vue.js is Wikimedia Foundation's future JavaScript framework

#143

Post by midrus »

ricardobeat wrote: post #34
ggregoire wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Although I understand what you saying about big shifts and kinda shared your opinion, specially about hooks, I started a new project from scratch last week and decided to give hooks a try (and, for reference, I've been using React on a daily basis for 5 years). Oh boy I was wrong. Hooks are way more easier and intuitive than what I thought. It makes code so much more readable and easier to reason about. Especially wh…

I've been through two large-scale projects now where we went 100% into hooks, and after a couple years the excitement has faded and I often wonder if it was worth it. It seems to end up making code even more complex than before, even though components look simpler on the surface. Not enough to go back to classes, but doesn't feel as good as those first steps. I absolutely hate the manual dependency tracking and havin…

Same experience here

Re: Vue.js is Wikimedia Foundation's future JavaScript framework

#144

Post by midrus »

porker wrote: post #80
wayneftw wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook is a steward not a dependency. React has been free and open source and largely driven by the needs of the community. Right down to that time when the community cried out about Facebook's odd license clause regarding patents. And they changed it. But I can't imagine modern technology being where it is without big shifts. Perhaps that is not good for very long term projects. We'll see how Vue fairs in the long…

> We'll see how Vue fairs in the long run if they never make any big shifts, I suppose. Vue 2 to Vue 3 has felt like a big shift. Big enough to leave most libraries incompatible with Vue3 and a lot of community forks spread around while library authors work out how (and if) to support both versions. Vue 3 is an improvement to work with IMO but it's a rewrite your code kind of upgrade.

The Vue 2 to 3 sounds very familiar to me to what happened with python 2 to 3 transition.

Re: Vue.js is Wikimedia Foundation's future JavaScript framework

#145

Post by midrus »

zkldi wrote: post #51

I feel like I'm in an alien world when it comes to Vue - it has this weird pattern of making strings do loads of heavy lifting. The Github Commits[1] example on their documentation has a load of stuff that just doesn't sit right with me. Things like v-for="record in commits" to loop over something is insane to me - this isn't code, this is a string inside a html attribute! How can you get any sort of good type analys…

This purism is why we can't have nice things.

Re: Vue.js is Wikimedia Foundation's future JavaScript framework

#146

Post by midrus »

rank0 wrote: post #102

Am I the only one who still has a preference for vanilla js? Maybe it’s just my use cases, but every time I try to use a high level framework like vue or react I am immediately bogged down by unnecessary abstraction and complexity. Again, I’m no UI dev so please correct me if I’m wrong! I have pretty simple needs for web app UI usually…I’m not trying to build Facebook. Why do I need react/vue/whatever?

Vanilla js does not exist. You either make a mess or you write your own, undocumented, untested framework.

Re: Vue.js is Wikimedia Foundation's future JavaScript framework

#147

Post by wayneftw »

rk06 wrote: post #100
wayneftw wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facebook is a steward not a dependency. React has been free and open source and largely driven by the needs of the community. Right down to that time when the community cried out about Facebook's odd license clause regarding patents. And they changed it. But I can't imagine modern technology being where it is without big shifts. Perhaps that is not good for very long term projects. We'll see how Vue fairs in the long…

> Right down to that time when the community cried out about Facebook's odd license clause regarding patents. And they changed it. Looks like you are remembering things differently. Facebook doubled down on public outcry and even react maintainers gave up on it. Then wordpress chose to stop its adoption of react in its new editor. And that caused Facebook to change the licence. The fact a big org was needed for this…

The WordPress group isn't part of the community? That it's a big org is a distinction you're making, not me. Open source communities are full of big organizations.

And now that the genie is out of the bottle anyone can do as they please with this fairly small rendering library and Facebook can't stop them. So I'm still not sure what the concern about Facebook is?

Re: Vue.js is Wikimedia Foundation's future JavaScript framework

#148

Post by rk06 »

wayneftw wrote: post #147
rk06 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Right down to that time when the community cried out about Facebook's odd license clause regarding patents. And they changed it. Looks like you are remembering things differently. Facebook doubled down on public outcry and even react maintainers gave up on it. Then wordpress chose to stop its adoption of react in its new editor. And that caused Facebook to change the licence. The fact a big org was needed for this…

The WordPress group isn't part of the community? That it's a big org is a distinction you're making, not me. Open source communities are full of big organizations. And now that the genie is out of the bottle anyone can do as they please with this fairly small rendering library and Facebook can't stop them. So I'm still not sure what the concern about Facebook is?

The problem was that:

1. They chose to insert the clause and refused to use standard MIT license despite complaints from community and their own developers

2. They are the kind of company who chose to do shady stuff despite complaints from community and their own developers

#1 was fixed. #2 is still the case and may come to bite back in future. That is the concern

Re: Vue.js is Wikimedia Foundation's future JavaScript framework

#149

Post by wayneftw »

rk06 wrote: post #148
wayneftw wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The WordPress group isn't part of the community? That it's a big org is a distinction you're making, not me. Open source communities are full of big organizations. And now that the genie is out of the bottle anyone can do as they please with this fairly small rendering library and Facebook can't stop them. So I'm still not sure what the concern about Facebook is?

The problem was that: 1. They chose to insert the clause and refused to use standard MIT license despite complaints from community and their own developers 2. They are the kind of company who chose to do shady stuff despite complaints from community and their own developers #1 was fixed. #2 is still the case and may come to bite back in future. That is the concern

So, nothing more than ambiguous conjecture? Got it.

Well, I'm pretty happy using it and I certainly don't lose any sleep over Facebook having built it. Quite the opposite - I thank them for it! Nobody can take away my rights to freely available MIT licensed code.

Re: Vue.js is Wikimedia Foundation's future JavaScript framework

#150

Post by Exuma »

otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #93
porker wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many users - who weren't programmers by training - loved CF for the ease of understanding. They had a DX paradigm that worked and I understand why people try to emulate it. It's a question of audience, and not for the HN crowd.

Except that SPA frameworks are designed to complicate things, not to make them easier to understand. And SPA framework developers are crazy expensive, mor expensive than seasoned C++ systems programmers. (The two facts are probably linked.)

Have you ever developed a complicated front-end system? Not using a vue/react style framework would be ludicrous (ie, building something like Facebook Ads UI or Google Analytics UI). I find it super bizarre you say "complicate things" when they do 100% the opposite. I would love to understand what you would use if you were tasked with building FB Ads manager interface: https://disruptiveadvertising.com/static/61a4440576bffd6e6a2...
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