Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Farmers always worked from home

piszek.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 180 posts

Re: Farmers always worked from home

#141

Post by logimame »

Retric wrote: post #121
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This fantasy needs to die. When pre-industrial farmers were not in the fields all day they were not idle. They were doing tedious low intensity tasks all day instead of doing laborious tasks all day. A large part of the purpose of Sunday being a day of rest in protestant religions is that if you don't convince people there will be literal hell to pay for not taking a day off they won't take a regular day off and they…

It’s simply historically accurate as seen by the plethora of medieval holidays not just Sunday. https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_... “And they worked only as many days as were necessary to earn their customary income -- which in this case amounted to about 120 days a year, for a probable total of only 1,440 hours annually (this estimate assumes a 12-hour day because the days worked were pro…

I think the problem with this debate isn't about how much people have worked in the past, but more about what actually is work.

For example, in today's society we do not think of basic chores like laundry as work, but in the past laundry was far more labor-intensive due to the lack of washing machines. Is repairing your broken furniture or clothes work? Is preparing your own food work? Those things are trivialized in today's advanced capitalist societies, but might have been a substantial part of life for people in the past. Nowadays most people seem to just buy new furniture and clothes, and even food preparing has been substantially trivialized by resteraunts, orders, takeouts, and readymade meals, so we're probably much more prilvileged than they were. But did the medieval people saw all of this extra work as "work" in today's sense? (Graeber's famous book ("Bullshit Jobs") kinda touches on this aspect in the end chapter, but I wish he've delved a bit more on it. There's a whole anthropology of work that's left unexplored...)

I just think that even the conception of work itself might have been too different to compare medieval society's work hours to today's. We in modern societies are too accustomed with wage labor, to even imagine that these people might not have even thought about tracking the hours they were "working".

Re: Farmers always worked from home

#142

Post by Retric »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #58
Retric wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Preindustrial farming involved a lot of downtime outside of the tropics. Essentially a few weeks a year involved 14+ hour days, but there simply wasn’t that much to do the rest of the year. It’s a common misconception that summer breaks where for farmers, but historically rurual areas actually had school in summer and winter with breaks in the spring and fall simply because that’s when there was a lot of work to get…

If you consider "farming" just working on the field.. then yes, they didn't do much work on the field itself. But there was a lot of other work to be done, from tending the animals, fixing/repairing farm equipment, making more profitable items (cheese instead of milk), making cloth, candles, etc. Saying they only work a few weeks, is like taking someones code, counting the characters, measuring their typing speed and…

Candles where expensive, manufacturing them may have been part of a farmers income but only the relatively wealthy could afford to use them regularly. Similar to say honey.

Also to clarify they definitely worked more than a few weeks a year, but rather the absolute limit on how much you could get done during planting and harvesting limited how much you needed to work the rest of the year. Maintaining extra fencing is as pointless as having 3 plows if you can only use 1. Starting a new farm is an extraordinary amount of work, but when people have been farming the same area for generations there is only so much to do.

Re: Farmers always worked from home

#143

Post by l30n4da5 »

spelunker wrote: post #55

This whole article reads like someone out of touch. We went to the countryside to observe the pastoral lifestyle! Hey look at these farmers! They're "working from home" all the time! Wow look at them milking cows! Farming is a hell of a lot of work and they have a poor "work life balance" out of necessity. There's too much to do. Maybe they find it rewarding, but I don't think it's an ideal everyone should be strivin…

In a similar vein, ranching falls prey to some of the same misconceptions.

source: grew up on a ranch. nearly every day involved working when I wasn't at school.

Re: Farmers always worked from home

#144

Post by lasagnaphil »

AlexTWithBeard wrote: post #73
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #50

Working for yourself, at your own pace, and doing things you chose to do and can choose to no longer do (like growing rye or having chickens as the article names) are a lot less stressful than working for someone else, with their deadlines, doing things they chose to do, like growing rye or having chickens. If you do it yourself you can set yourself boundaries. If some other schmuck does it you can get yourself a big…

> working for someone else, with their deadlines The problem is that you cannot discuss deadlines with chickens either: they have to be fed on time, or else.

Exactly, the essence of farming is actually complying to the harsh physical realities of the world (which doesn't give a single fuck about you.) You have strict deadlines on when to plant and harvest crops, too late and you're fucked. Even worse, even if you adhere to all those deadlines there are always special events like droughts and rainstorms which will definitely make you starve. No wonder why all those early agricultural people made religions to pray for the rain to please drop - you are now at the mercy of Mother Nature.

Re: Farmers always worked from home

#145

Post by Retric »

logimame wrote: post #141
Retric wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s simply historically accurate as seen by the plethora of medieval holidays not just Sunday. https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_... “And they worked only as many days as were necessary to earn their customary income -- which in this case amounted to about 120 days a year, for a probable total of only 1,440 hours annually (this estimate assumes a 12-hour day because the days worked were pro…

I think the problem with this debate isn't about how much people have worked in the past, but more about what actually is work. For example, in today's society we do not think of basic chores like laundry as work, but in the past laundry was far more labor-intensive due to the lack of washing machines. Is repairing your broken furniture or clothes work? Is preparing your own food work? Those things are trivialized in…

I don’t disagree, however most people really didn’t have much stuff in preindustrial societies and it generally lasted a very long time. Having say a separate bed for your children was a sign of relative wealth. American plantation owners are the equivalent of local nobility not farmers.

Similarly, food preparation generally involved minimal ingredients and as little effort as possible. Women where often working in fields or tending animals even with very young children, not spending 4+ hours a day in a kitchen.

Re: Farmers always worked from home

#146

Post by s1artibartfast »

randomdata wrote: post #138
s1artibartfast wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that a CEO at an investment firm that passively owns a farm is not a farmer, at least for the purpose of getting an accurate understanding of a farmer's work life balance. Similarly, business operations desk jockey for a multinational ag business is not a farmer. I think the parent post was referring to those who perform physical labor on a farm and directly oversee that labor. Yes, I am gatekeeping being…

Regardless, I was originally talking about people you actually think of farmers. Not people like Bill Gates who are technically farmers but have little association with the industry. It remains that it is a pretty good gig if your capital costs are covered. I'm a farmer myself (I do the work, not just an investment), so I say that from first-hand experience. The amount you can make per hour of work is incredible, and…

Well that's interesting. What crop and acreage are you working with? I was a part owner of 100 acres of pistachios for 20 years and margins were very thin. Labor, electricity, and periodic capital inputs were the major costs. Labor and management was year round with no off season.

I in no way want to invalidate your experience, but don't understand excluding the capital input costs and claiming it is lucrative. How many years did it take to break even on your capital investment?

Re: Farmers always worked from home

#147

Post by s1artibartfast »

Retric wrote: post #102
s1artibartfast wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any additional information or sources on the subject. Not that I don't believe you, but I grew up in a post-industrial small farming community and 12 hour days were the norm most of the year. If the crops didnt need attention, there was always a long list of other tasks, digging wells, repairing equipment, infrastructure improvement. It would be interesting to see what changed.

https://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/rauch/worktime/hours_... Summing up all of preindustrial farming covers a lot of area but for the major differences. Mostly vastly less land per farmer and minimal equipment, no insecticide and minimal fertilizers mostly animal droppings and marl applied early in the year. Limited and in many areas zero irrigation. This translated into less infrastructure, and fewer things to bu…

Interesting, I suppose another factor to consider is the quality of life afforded by that level of labor and output.

Re: Farmers always worked from home

#148

Post by kbenson »

loriverkutya wrote: post #131
dragontamer wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm no farmer, but you can see the extremely expensive and sophisticated farming machines pretty much every time you drive past a rural area. Giant watering machines, extremely weird "collector" thingies, and a whole slew of farmers complaining to John Deere about "right to repair". Modern Farming is about having huge infrastructure so that very few people can create lots and lots of food. Between the fertilizer, the…

You are not a crop doctor, that’s a completely separate job source: my friend done it as university major.

Just like the house owner that does his own work isn't a general contractor. And like that, the distinction is gradual, and there is benefit to the home owner in knowing how to do their own repairs and construction to a point, and then hiring out for the stuff that's too much for you.

I don't think most people thought that the theoretical general farmer described is literally a crop doctor, but that they should know enough about it to know when to call in a professional, and when there are initial steps that might be taken to hamper or eliminate a disease before it takes hold.

Re: Farmers always worked from home

#149

Post by agumonkey »

spelunker wrote: post #140
agumonkey wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wonder what causes the long hours ? market dynamics running prices to the ground until the guys cant squeeze any more minute from a day ? or just too much tradition in organization forcing them to spend more time than necessary in the fields ?

I think it's the former. I have relatives who farm, and for farming to be profitable requires a _lot_ of product to sell. I also have non-blood relatives trying to start a small farm in rural Pennsylvania. They tried growing and selling oat last year. Apparently it wasn't worth the effort unless they were going to grow and sell it at at huge quantities. Farming isn't necessarily traditions-based. My established farmi…

how is the middle man situation in Northern America ? in France, some kinds of products are made unbearably hard to produce because they'll negotiate you to death (biggest milk corp. lactalis for instance) while they make good premiums on cheese / yogurts etc

Maybe with a different distribution structure producers can get a bit more profits and people nicer / fresher products ?

Re: Farmers always worked from home

#150

Post by kbenson »

hondo77 wrote: post #117
chirau wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have to disagree with you. Or maybe farming is just terrible here in the US because of all the rules and crap with companies like Monsanto. Where I come from, farming is a pretty fulfilling endeavor. Both my parents left senior corporate roles to pursue farming because they love it so much. Even when they made their first money working, they bought a piece of land and were there pretty much every weekend. They star…

> ...they bought a piece of land and were there pretty much every weekend. That's not farming for a living. That is a hobby. Big difference.

I think perhaps you need to read the comment closer:

> left senior corporate roles to pursue farming

> when they made their first money working, they bought a piece of land and were there pretty much every weekend

> from working the farm themselves all the way to employing peoplefrom working the farm themselves all the way to employing people

My interpretation of that is they bought the land and worked it weekends while they still had corporate jobs, but left those roles to focus on the farm, and now even employ people to work it with them.

That's not what I would call a hobby. It does seem to be farming for a living, given no alternative/additional jobs are mentioned.

Post reply on HN