How to get better at painting without painting anything (2015) • Hacker News Board

Re: How to get better at painting without painting anything (2015)

#141

Post by agustif » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 3:47 PM UTC

tsumnia wrote: post #130

chris_st wrote: post #126

As much as I agree with a lot in this article, I totally don't understand the "Code Kata" thing promoted by Uncle Bob Martin and others. I understand drilling a specific skill in the arts, but writing the same piece of code over and over just makes no sense at all (and yeah, his example was solving the "Bowling Score" problem every time). So, anyone do code katas and like/recommend them? If so, what does it teach you…

I don't personally do katas, but I would recommend them. As a disclaimer, I've written a research paper on the use of typing exercises to help learn CS [1]. For typing exercises, I consider it akin to building muscle memory at getting comfortable with code syntax with a variety of examples. I look at katas in a simple fashion, small scale problems designed to get you comfortable with building mental models in your he…

Interesting!

There's a SaaS that let's you do this https://typing.io/

Re: How to get better at painting without painting anything (2015)

#142

Post by egypturnash » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 3:49 PM UTC

GistNoesis wrote: post #85

MikeLumos wrote: post #64

Recently I've been thinking the exact opposite things. Many novice artists get too hung up on doing "exercises", because they're easy, straightforward, and comfortable (compared to doing the real thing). They waste a lot of time without improving all that much, because repeating exercises out of context can quickly become mindless, people tend to lose sight of the real purpose (making good drawings/paintings), and in…

While watching an acrobat show, I came to the realization that there is probably a better way to develop skills. These acrobats were realizing dangerous performances, where mistakes must not happen even when doing the show thousands of times. And also it must have been possible to practice it right on the first time. My answer to that is imagination, search for the proper mindset, and switching to it. You have to try…

Acrobats are also doing things like practicing with a lot of padding and nets. And working up to the big dangerous stuff by doing simpler versions.

I took pole dance classes for a while, for instance, and it was only after a lot of practice that I was allowed to start doing moves where I was upside down and hanging on to the pole with my thighs. And the beginning of that involved just lifting my ass over my head (after a lot of strengthening of my abdominal muscles) and wrapping my legs around the pole, and suffering through the pain of most of my weight suddenly being on two tender little strips of flesh in my inner thighs. Once they toughened up I could start doing more interesting things.

Re: How to get better at painting without painting anything (2015)

#143

Post by mch82 » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 3:50 PM UTC

tweetle_beetle wrote: post #63

mch82 wrote: post #41

> I paint realism in oils, mostly still life. I showed my grandma (98) a photo on an iPad. Her immediate reaction: “there’s no reason to paint realism anymore”. The method described in this article might work for realism in oils, but please don’t accept it as the exclusive way to create art. Art is about understanding the tools you’re using to create (for example how paint mixes, moves, dries, interacts with a surfac…

> Art is about studying & talking with other artists to learn how they work, the processes they use, how they solve problems; Everything else makes sense to me, but isn't this a bit narrow? It implies that all art is the search for some higher truth, and that it can only be achieved as a communal effort. This academic, analytical approach would seem to fit your personal art career and that of many artists important t…

You’re right. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise.

Re: How to get better at painting without painting anything (2015)

#144

Post by chris_st » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 3:56 PM UTC

tsumnia wrote: post #130

chris_st wrote: post #126

As much as I agree with a lot in this article, I totally don't understand the "Code Kata" thing promoted by Uncle Bob Martin and others. I understand drilling a specific skill in the arts, but writing the same piece of code over and over just makes no sense at all (and yeah, his example was solving the "Bowling Score" problem every time). So, anyone do code katas and like/recommend them? If so, what does it teach you…

I don't personally do katas, but I would recommend them. As a disclaimer, I've written a research paper on the use of typing exercises to help learn CS [1]. For typing exercises, I consider it akin to building muscle memory at getting comfortable with code syntax with a variety of examples. I look at katas in a simple fashion, small scale problems designed to get you comfortable with building mental models in your he…

Excellent! I really like the idea of doing a lot of small, unique exercises. Even something as simple as, "Okay, you built a linked list of integers, now start from an empty file and write a linked list of floats, then do the same for structs (which is going to add some interesting complexity)."

Re: How to get better at painting without painting anything (2015)

#145

Post by chris_st » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 3:56 PM UTC

mceachen wrote: post #137

blindmute wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know why anyone would repeat the same code multiple times, but I have found that practicing leetcode does actually improve code skill, even when the coding job doesn't have any complex algorithms. Just the practice of solving the algorithm has carryover to normal work problems, which would make sense as it's basically distilled code logic practice.

Many coding challenges are great drill work: but if you can, have your code read by someone else to ensure you're practicing how to write readable, maintainable code. Leetcode solutions seem to be regularly "golfed" into being unreadable and intractable. Don't practice that! At least in my experience, well-defined and functionally isolated coding challenges rarely happen at work, though. Another skill you'll need to…

> Leetcode solutions seem to be regularly "golfed" into being unreadable and intractable. Don't practice that!

AMEN!

Re: How to get better at painting without painting anything (2015)

#146

Post by chris_st » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 3:57 PM UTC

blindmute wrote: post #133

chris_st wrote: post #126

As much as I agree with a lot in this article, I totally don't understand the "Code Kata" thing promoted by Uncle Bob Martin and others. I understand drilling a specific skill in the arts, but writing the same piece of code over and over just makes no sense at all (and yeah, his example was solving the "Bowling Score" problem every time). So, anyone do code katas and like/recommend them? If so, what does it teach you…

I don't know why anyone would repeat the same code multiple times, but I have found that practicing leetcode does actually improve code skill, even when the coding job doesn't have any complex algorithms. Just the practice of solving the algorithm has carryover to normal work problems, which would make sense as it's basically distilled code logic practice.

Oh yeah, I can definitely see doing a lot of small, not-necessarily-easy challenges as a way to improve. Even doing the same one, but in a different way ("now use an array instead of a linked list") would be good.

Re: How to get better at painting without painting anything (2015)

#147

Post by tsumnia » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 4:13 PM UTC

agustif wrote: post #141

tsumnia wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't personally do katas, but I would recommend them. As a disclaimer, I've written a research paper on the use of typing exercises to help learn CS [1]. For typing exercises, I consider it akin to building muscle memory at getting comfortable with code syntax with a variety of examples. I look at katas in a simple fashion, small scale problems designed to get you comfortable with building mental models in your he…

Interesting! There's a SaaS that let's you do this https://typing.io/

There are a few that have adopted typing practice with code (https://www.speedtyper.dev/ is another one). I think they focus a little too much on training your typing speed rather than helping expose new concepts/examples without making them coding problems.

Either way, yes, practicing code writing without solving coding problems does help learn CS concepts. I conceptualize it as some of the issues with CS/coding comes from "analysis paralysis" where you don't know what to do and even though you were told "use a loop", you don't really know what that means or are still struggling to know how to implement a loop. Drilling these lower level practices helps reduce that by saying "let's not worry about problem solving for a second, let's just focus on you getting comfortable with implementation". Then, there is less hesitation because the student knows "use a loop" means write out the syntax for the loop, THEN figure out what you want to loop.

Re: How to get better at painting without painting anything (2015)

#148

Post by tsumnia » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 4:16 PM UTC

chris_st wrote: post #144

tsumnia wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't personally do katas, but I would recommend them. As a disclaimer, I've written a research paper on the use of typing exercises to help learn CS [1]. For typing exercises, I consider it akin to building muscle memory at getting comfortable with code syntax with a variety of examples. I look at katas in a simple fashion, small scale problems designed to get you comfortable with building mental models in your he…

Excellent! I really like the idea of doing a lot of small, unique exercises. Even something as simple as, "Okay, you built a linked list of integers, now start from an empty file and write a linked list of floats, then do the same for structs (which is going to add some interesting complexity)."

Take a look at my [2] link then (Google Scholar or ResearchGate have the PDF without a paywall)! John Edward's group out of Utah made ~30 small exercises exactly like that. "Make a loop the goes to 3", now "Make a loop that goes to 4", now "Make a loop that goes from 2 to 4", ok now "Loop from 4 to 1", etc.

And from my own work and Edwards, students enjoy these types of practices. They seem trivial to us experts, but they are appreciated by novices.

Re: How to get better at painting without painting anything (2015)

#149

Post by brudgers » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 4:45 PM UTC

blindmute wrote: post #138

brudgers wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For art, it’s not skill or technique that makes someone an artist. It is simply the terrifying decision that what you make is art. Terrifying because the only gatekeeper to being an artist is you. Declare yourself an artist and you are. Call what you made art and it is.

It is however skill and technique that in large part makes someone a good artist. Like it or not, art is a physically skilled medium.

There is no such thing as good and bad artists. That’s what makes the decision terrifying.

Re: How to get better at painting without painting anything (2015)

#150

Post by kixiQu » Tue, Jul 06, 2021, 5:30 PM UTC

Maybe this is just sticking out for me because I'm currently working on my visual art skills, but -- making an illustration or piece of visual art involves a lot of separate skills. It's like if someone did a million algorithms problems in Python, then went back to Java and touted the headline "I got better at Java without writing Java". You got better at executing on the whole thing you're trying to do in Java, sure, but your Java-specific skills didn't get better, so -- what are we impressed by?

For any given person those algorithms problems might or might not have been the most helpful thing to sink effort into. I know a lot of artists struggle with issues that are best addressed by scrimmage-type practice, not drilling. "It’s the most effective way to build your skills" is totally defensible for specific skills, not overall success. A lot of artists misidentify what the skills are they need to improve. Executing on whole pieces forces you to reckon with your weak points, not just iterate endlessly on the skill you think would be cool to be super good at.

> Constantly performing without ever practising is how amateurs approach things in other fields. Amateur golfers never drill, they just play. And being an amateur is fine. Painting for a hobby is fine.

This is honestly not true IME. Maybe realist oil painting draws a different sort than the more illustrative creators I know of -- but I know so many people who sketch constantly but never step beyond into more polished works because they're terrified of their weak points.

Finally, "repeated mistakes" as a distinction between performance and practice is just straw man nonsense. Wanting to improve efficiently involves continuous iteration on what you're doing, no matter what methods you're going about. Find me someone who agrees with the idea that it's better to execute on whole works and that this constitutes accepting repeating your mistakes, or defend with some data the idea that drilling necessarily involves more reevaluation of your progress (hint: I've known pianists ruin their tendons with technical exercises done wrong).