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Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

nature.com

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Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#141

Post by kQq9oHeAz6wLLS »

munk-a wrote: post #69
YawningAngel wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's quite irresponsible to try and coerce people who don't need treatment to accept it as well

No it isn't - it's providing unified and clear guidance on vaccination. I'm up in Canada where vaccine hesitancy has been almost unheard of[1] and those who refuse to get vaccinated, excepting those that can't for medical reasons, are ostracized for their overtly selfish actions. The US, though, has a real problem with disinformation being accepted more readily than fact. I am fine with the theory of having a nuanced…

> are ostracized

That sounds like hell.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#142

Post by saiya-jin »

reedjosh wrote: post #88
r00fus wrote: post #52

Can someone tell me why we (US) don't have a vaccine passport yet?

Because authoritarianism is antithetical to our founding nature. A centralized database that is used to control individuals is akin to China's social credit system. I've actually started seeing people argue for China style systems, and I find it both frightening and sickening. When I start to push back at all, I usually get arguments like `Leave the US if you don't like it.`, and sure I'll just pick up and leave the…

I think this kind of attitude is exactly what OP had in mind. There are tons of central databases you are already registered in, all available on demand. They detail your life in more detail than you know about yourself at this point (certainly when all data are combined).

To be not aware of this on place like HackerNews is... not very believable, we discuss this all the time, every day.

"last bastion of freedom" - there are places like Switzerland which have more of freedom than any place in US. There is no power nor amount of the money in the world that would force me to move from here to police state like US where everybody talks about freedom but only top 0.1% enjoys some of it.

This might be hard to grasp, but it should be generally true also in US - your freedom ends where other's begins (ie transportation, coming to any work/office). With Covid, this is valid 1000x more. Freedom and anarchy are not the same as some hardliners would like to believe.

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#143

Post by wait_a_minute »

ryandrake wrote: post #120
reducesuffering wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then there's the elephant in the room: so few people have been tested that it really difficult to know who has had it. Anyone who has had a cold in the past 18 months is going to claim they had covid, regardless of whether they tested positive or not. There are many many people who have confirmed positive COVID tests. At least excuse those. >I think it's a little irresponsible to society to give anyone an out on ge…

> There are many many people who have confirmed positive COVID tests. At least excuse those. Yes, but don't just take their word for it. Confirmed clinical test should be the bar. I fear if the "you don't need a vaccine if you've had it" narrative gains traction, even if it is undeniably true, it's going to result in the anti-vaxxers lying about having already had the virus, to manufacture another excuse for themselv…

It's not your business to police this and that's not how it works in the United States. It is not anyone's business to demand a confirmed clinical test. Florida and other states have been open for a long time now and their covid numbers are declining same as wherever there are attempts at more mandates. What use is a confirmed clinical test there?

We are not a collective. We do not have these types of arbiters who will police and decide what is best for everyone. We are a nation of individuals and if you cannot trust people to "pinky-swear" on this matter then how can you trust them to do anything? Including vote on anything? Or reason? Who will make all the decisions for them?

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#144

Post by braincat31415 »

ryandrake wrote: post #120
reducesuffering wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Then there's the elephant in the room: so few people have been tested that it really difficult to know who has had it. Anyone who has had a cold in the past 18 months is going to claim they had covid, regardless of whether they tested positive or not. There are many many people who have confirmed positive COVID tests. At least excuse those. >I think it's a little irresponsible to society to give anyone an out on ge…

> There are many many people who have confirmed positive COVID tests. At least excuse those. Yes, but don't just take their word for it. Confirmed clinical test should be the bar. I fear if the "you don't need a vaccine if you've had it" narrative gains traction, even if it is undeniably true, it's going to result in the anti-vaxxers lying about having already had the virus, to manufacture another excuse for themselv…

Here is the thing (and that's something that people with kids might relate to) -- we already know that covid is not a danger to kids, and that there are potential side effects involved when vaccinating kids. There is no way in hell I would vaccinate my child because "it is good for the society as a whole".

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#146

Post by ceejayoz »

braincat31415 wrote: post #144
ryandrake wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are many many people who have confirmed positive COVID tests. At least excuse those. Yes, but don't just take their word for it. Confirmed clinical test should be the bar. I fear if the "you don't need a vaccine if you've had it" narrative gains traction, even if it is undeniably true, it's going to result in the anti-vaxxers lying about having already had the virus, to manufacture another excuse for themselv…

Here is the thing (and that's something that people with kids might relate to) -- we already know that covid is not a danger to kids, and that there are potential side effects involved when vaccinating kids. There is no way in hell I would vaccinate my child because "it is good for the society as a whole".

> we already know that covid is not a danger to kids

We don't actually know this. We know it's less dangerous to them thus far. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-56696907 https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/politifact/202...

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#147

Post by [deleted] »

polote wrote: post #7
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #5

The mRNA vaccines have been the silver lining to the whole COVID-19 disaster. They seem “unreasonably effective” against COVID, basically if you had a genie that you could ask to make a vaccine, it would be hard to do much better, other than the requirement for 2 jabs. In addition, the mRNA technology has broad applicability to other issues such as other viruses (such as flu) and even cancer!

Do we have any proof that the second dose is useful at all ?

[deleted]

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#148

Post by runarberg »

reedjosh wrote: post #97
freddealmeida wrote: post #70

they also found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. I don't believe a word of this. Let's wait for the longitudinal studies yes?

This is a one hundred percent relevant and accurate comment. I believe in ten years comments like this will be respected for saying it in a time when it was unpopular.

It is true, the government did lie about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq in order to gain popular support for an unpopular war. More relevant to this thread is the fake vaccination campaign CIA orchestrated in Pakistan[1] to achieve some militaristic and violent goals for the USA government. It is an interesting question indeed. Why should we trust them?

We should also talk about this, and we should even be blaming the poor vaccination rates in the USA on this tendency of the government to lie in order to serve a narrow self interest. In my opinion this kind of behavior should not be expected from a government that calls it self democratic, and there needs to be some repercussions to the people responsible. Until then, it is totally understandable why people are skeptic towards any of their claims, including claims about the efficacy of Covid vaccines.

That said, my answer to my previous question: “when should we trust the government,” is: on a case by case basis. When it comes to Covid vaccines, there have been ample studies, by many parties, independent agencies, etc. And the claim is consistent. The vaccines are safe and an effective protection against serious illnesses from Covid 19. In this case, the government appears not to be lying.

1: https://www.grunge.com/321975/the-tragic-true-story-of-the-c...

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#149

Post by valeness »

reedjosh wrote: post #88
r00fus wrote: post #52

Can someone tell me why we (US) don't have a vaccine passport yet?

Because authoritarianism is antithetical to our founding nature. A centralized database that is used to control individuals is akin to China's social credit system. I've actually started seeing people argue for China style systems, and I find it both frightening and sickening. When I start to push back at all, I usually get arguments like `Leave the US if you don't like it.`, and sure I'll just pick up and leave the…

How is our credit score system much different than a centralized database used to control individuals?

Re: Pfizer and Moderna vaccines may produce lasting immunity

#150

Post by michaelmrose »

reducesuffering wrote: post #67
mywittyname wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vaccination is more comprehensive than natural immunity though. We've already see that the BNT vaccine offers a higher degree of protection against variants than natural immunity, or indeed other vaccines. Reinfection studies from a few months ago demonstrated that natural immunity is roughly 50% effective for people aged 65 or over. And that's the age group most likely to experience negative outcomes from covid-19,…

> Then there's the elephant in the room: so few people have been tested that it really difficult to know who has had it. Anyone who has had a cold in the past 18 months is going to claim they had covid, regardless of whether they tested positive or not. There are many many people who have confirmed positive COVID tests. At least excuse those. >I think it's a little irresponsible to society to give anyone an out on ge…

> There are many many people who have confirmed positive COVID tests. At least excuse those.

The virus is a moving target and what was true of the alpha variant may not be true of delta or downstream. I guess it depends on what you mean by excuse. If you mean allow people to say go on a cruise with a positive covid test as opposed to a vaccination record that seems tentatively reasonable. If you mean allow workers at an old folks home to opt out based on a prior positive test that is unreasonable. If it makes you even possibly slightly less likely to kill the old folks you should get the jab.

The real problem is the grey area created by such a rule. There are probably multiple times as many people who think they have had covid compared to those that have actually had covid that have never been tested. I know people in the US who had an illness in 2019 who are sure they had covid. If you give them an opening they wont let it go. It will surely get ugly.

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