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As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

theatlantic.com

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Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#141

Post by Retric »

nvahalik wrote: post #119
tonymet wrote: post #93

Becoming more religious has helped me identify religious tendencies in the secular world. Ideology doesn’t imply supernatural deities, and some worldly phenomenon can be elevated to a supernatural level. Secular belief contains rituals, origin stories, deities, saints, priesthood, blasphemy, vice & virtue just as religion does. One aspect of religion I appreciate is that these aspects are well codified and debated –…

What’s even more interesting is that most ideologies also adhere to a standard religious framework as well: - anthropology - problem of evil/sin - redemption - eschatology If your system he answers to these, you basically have a religion.

That’s a very western take on religion. Some have no belief in an end time with a static or cyclical world.

Sin/evil isn’t really a thing in many religions. Polytheistic religions for example can have multiple contradictory ideas for what the correct actions are.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#142

Post by dijit »

hilbertseries wrote: post #126
alkonaut wrote: post #71

I want to point out that this is incorrect: > It’s rare to hear someone accused of being un-Swedish or un-British—but un-American is a common slur, slung by both left and right against the other. Being called un-American is like being called “un-Christian” or “un-Islamic,” a charge akin to heresy. In fact to be unswedish is not just a common idiom it’s a positive one. It’s when you don’t show the typical negative Swe…

Seems that British nationalism runs pretty deep too, no? How else would you explain brexit?

British nationalism is built on building things up as British not tearing things down as unBritish.

“‘Cor tea and digestives on a rainy day, what could be more british”

National identity precludes other nationalities, which is largely the impetus for Brexit. Brits are not ever blamed for being unBritish, even if they don’t like football.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#143

Post by IncRnd »

alkonaut wrote: post #71

I want to point out that this is incorrect: > It’s rare to hear someone accused of being un-Swedish or un-British—but un-American is a common slur, slung by both left and right against the other. Being called un-American is like being called “un-Christian” or “un-Islamic,” a charge akin to heresy. In fact to be unswedish is not just a common idiom it’s a positive one. It’s when you don’t show the typical negative Swe…

> It’s rare to hear someone accused of being un-Swedish or un-British—but un-American is a common slur, slung by both left and right against the other. Being called un-American is like being called “un-Christian” or “un-Islamic,” a charge akin to heresy.

People may be called un-American as a political weapon, but that's about all it is. People in politics use all sorts of childish phrases as weapons. In reality I've never been called un-American or seen another person called un-American, unless it was for humor.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#144

Post by tonymet »

hilbertseries wrote: post #120

It’s interesting how you’ve written so much here and not given what concrete example. Makes it very difficult to examine your argument, when you simply state that secular ideology is religious. I think it’s worth noting the definition of secular is: > denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis.

Money, medicine, “tolerance”, “racism”, politically incorrect language, natural selection, “the self,” public figures (CEOs, scientists, figureheads), celebrities, recycling, wearing masks, the super bowl, the oscars, the multiverse, the big bang, psychotherapy, anti-depressants, over-eating & dieting, conspicuous traveling, visiting nature, architecture.

You can throw those into the religious categories e.g. virtue, vice, deities, origin story etc.

I should also mention “original sin” – you can guess examples of those – in america that would be “racism”.

I’m not taking good / bad position just applying religious lens to secular lifestyle.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#145

Post by jeofken »

jltsiren wrote: post #64
FridayoLeary wrote: post #9

>Immigrants to America tend to become American; emigrants to other countries from America tend to stay American. Is that true, or just the authors' speculation? Although it is easily explained. Everyone wants to be American because the USA, of all the countries in the world offers the greatest opportunities to the greatest number of people. They are the top of the food chain, in less nationalistic terms. (i'm not Ame…

Things may look a bit different from a (West) European perspective. I know enough people who used to live in the US but left, partly because they did not want to inflict US citizenship upon their children. Among all wealthy countries, US citizenship is probably the least desirable one if you don't plan to live there permanently. In any case, the expat/immigrant situation is familiar to many Europeans as well. The rea…

Some Americans I know make a big difference between being a settler nation, like those who came to where there was no civilisation but hunters/gatherers, vs immigrants who move into the blooming civilisation

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#146

Post by tonymet »

tonymet wrote: post #144
hilbertseries wrote: post #120

It’s interesting how you’ve written so much here and not given what concrete example. Makes it very difficult to examine your argument, when you simply state that secular ideology is religious. I think it’s worth noting the definition of secular is: > denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis.

Money, medicine, “tolerance”, “racism”, politically incorrect language, natural selection, “the self,” public figures (CEOs, scientists, figureheads), celebrities, recycling, wearing masks, the super bowl, the oscars, the multiverse, the big bang, psychotherapy, anti-depressants, over-eating & dieting, conspicuous traveling, visiting nature, architecture. You can throw those into the religious categories e.g. virtue,…

and I forgot two qualities that are both states of being & virtues: love & happiness.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#147

Post by gogopuppygogo »

Blaming the trend of declining religious faith in the American people is as easy as blaming replacement migration.

How about we talk about declining standard of living, wealth inequality, and rules that apply only to the working class while the political/wealthy classes live their best lives.

The existing system is broken.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#148

Post by beaconstudios »

keithnz wrote: post #102
bobthechef wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religion isn't going away. Ideology is religion. Very bad religion, but it is religion (or a "cult" to use your language, though that term is overloaded). And no one is without religion. Everyone worships something. The question is: are you worshiping the right thing? In terms of the "traditional" churches in the US, yes, mainline Protestantism is dying because it is a spent force (it has more or less fully acquiesce…

what definition of religion are you using? this is the dictionaries... religion /rɪˈlɪdʒ(ə)n/ noun the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

under that definition, Buddhism isn't a religion - so it's clearly not a very good definition.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#149

Post by whatshisface »

tonymet wrote: post #93

Becoming more religious has helped me identify religious tendencies in the secular world. Ideology doesn’t imply supernatural deities, and some worldly phenomenon can be elevated to a supernatural level. Secular belief contains rituals, origin stories, deities, saints, priesthood, blasphemy, vice & virtue just as religion does. One aspect of religion I appreciate is that these aspects are well codified and debated –…

>Few people understand that most religions e.g. Judaism and Christianity have an apologetic discipline – a deliberate arm open to debate.

Open to talking about it, sure, but the crucial element that separates apologetics from real debate is that one side is forbidden from changing their mind. In religion there is a rule overshadowing the exchange of ideas that says, "no matter how convinced you are, or how weak your own case is, you should stick with it, because it's virtuous to stick with this belief no matter what."

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#150

Post by lolinder »

Retric wrote: post #141
nvahalik wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s even more interesting is that most ideologies also adhere to a standard religious framework as well: - anthropology - problem of evil/sin - redemption - eschatology If your system he answers to these, you basically have a religion.

That’s a very western take on religion. Some have no belief in an end time with a static or cyclical world. Sin/evil isn’t really a thing in many religions. Polytheistic religions for example can have multiple contradictory ideas for what the correct actions are.

Eschatology doesn't just have to do with the end times. It is "concerned with death, judgment, and the final destiny of the soul". Hinduism and Buddhism clearly address this. Confucianism and Shinto may be exceptions, and of course there are plenty others that I'm not familiar with, but eschatology is far from being only a preoccupation of Western religions.
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