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New York Senate passes Right to Repair bill

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Re: New York Senate passes Right to Repair bill

#141

Post by ksec »

xroche wrote: post #28

If I loosely quote Louis Rossmann, one of the issue of right to repair is that more and more companies (Apple leading the trend) are using slightly modified chips from manufacturers, and them make then sign contracts that prevent any part selling to anyone. So technically even you can replace those chips, you can't buy them. And next Apple if putting serial numbers to prevent that even if you get the part, you will h…

Apple had to cut the time to buy AppleCare+ in China down to 7 days simply due to the fact people were swapping parts in iPhone and return for exchanges.

And I am not entirely sure if it is a good idea Apple sell these parts for repairing. Which Apple will definitely do so with their hardware margin. i.e They will sell you the Display Screen with Glass for $300+. At this point you might as well go to Apple and fix it.

I had always wish the Services Strategy of Apple was to raise the price of iPhone and Mac by $100, move those to Services Revenue and included AppleCare+ by default. Also lowering any replacement and fixing price rather than try and gouge their customer at their Genius Bar. Which is increasingly a thing since 2015.

Getting third party fixing also have risk when your Data aren't fully backed up. Which is something likes to push for their iCloud Services.

Re: New York Senate passes Right to Repair bill

#142

Post by spicybright »

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #122
znpy wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Given the cost of medical care in this country although in this specific case in example, if the country you're talking about are the US, having access to the $500 motor only means wider profit margins for the hostpital, not necessarily lower bills for hospitalized people.

Perhaps, but it’s clear we must both lower costs (fix repair laws) and provide free medical care for everyone. So fixing repair is one important step towards an end goal of health care for everyone.

I agree, but I'd also say there's a line between inconsequential things like a chair motor, and something giving life support to someone.

It would suck to die because the repair guy didn't solder the wire correctly.

It's really tough to draw that line though, and it's in the manufactures interest $ + lawsuit wise to play it safe.

Re: New York Senate passes Right to Repair bill

#143

Post by spicybright »

ping_pong wrote: post #114
vikingerik wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's interpret this the right way: this doesn't mean "we're not going to handle motor vehicles or medical", it means "motor vehicles and medical are out of scope for this measure." They can be handled separately, and that's reasonable given the greater safety concerns of those industries.

The best way to kill something is by saying "yes, we'll get to that next, don't worry!" and then never get to it.

it can go both ways. Yes you're right, but making huge changes that disturb every industry makes a hell of an opposition to fight.

Re: New York Senate passes Right to Repair bill

#144

Post by sneak »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #135
sneak wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't claim to be in favor of Apple retaining control of every iPhone they sell. Please re-read my comment. My claim is that for most users of iPhones, the situation of Apple being in control of their device, rather than themselves, results in a better outcome for that user (and is oftentimes explicitly preferred by that user as a result, and is reflected in their purchase of an iPhone). In fact, Apple delegates c…

> My claim is that for most users of iPhones, the situation of Apple being in control of their device, rather than themselves, results in a better outcome for that user (and is oftentimes explicitly preferred by that user as a result, and is reflected in their purchase of an iPhone). Okay, but that comes out to the same thing, since I can't buy an iPhone which isn't Apple managed. If Apple offered a choice, that woul…

> Okay, but that comes out to the same thing, since I can't buy an iPhone which isn't Apple managed. If Apple offered a choice, that would be one thing—but they don't.

Well, you know this state of affairs well now, so when you buy an iPhone you willingly opt in to these remote management restrictions. There are lots of smartphones you can buy without such cryptographic boot restrictions.

Many people willingly choose iPhones (even given these constraints), and would prefer a remote party manage their device's security.

Apple's argument is a legitimate one, and you should be able to operate in the market in this fashion. Nobody's forced to buy an iPhone if they don't like how the bootloader is configured or the App Store is run.

Re: New York Senate passes Right to Repair bill

#145

Post by Karunamon »

sneak wrote: post #125
Dracophoenix wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only a good argument if you assume that Apple is fundamentally interested in consumer security. It isn't. Apple is fundamentally interested in control. Security, however Apple defines it, is a chosen means to the extent that is fulfills the company's primary goal. That's not to say that Apple should behave like a charitable force. A company's goals and decisions are its own prerogative. But as we've seen with th…

> You're buying into the blackbox of Apple's present and future business decisions whether whether that suits your needs or not. You don't have to install updates.

Technically, no, but you'll be repetitively bothered by modal popups until you do.

Re: New York Senate passes Right to Repair bill

#146

Post by slim »

kwiens wrote: post #63
myfavoritedog wrote: post #52

4. Excludes motor vehicle manufacturers, manufacturer of motor vehicle equipment, or motor vehicle dealers and medical devices or a digital electronic product or embedded software found in medical settings. For all the bravado about standing up to powerful interests, this shows you who the most powerful interests are in that space.

We excluded autos because the Massachusetts auto right to repair bill (most recently updated in November) covers this, and there's a nationwide MOU. Tesla is the only manufacturer that has not signed this MOU. There is a lawsuit around that ballot initiative, and iFixit and EFF just filed an Amicus on Monday supporting the law. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/06/eff-files-amicus-brief... Sometimes it's better to f…

What you said does not make any sense. What's the problem if the law is overlapping ?

Re: New York Senate passes Right to Repair bill

#147

Post by Teknoman117 »

spicybright wrote: post #140
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMO it comes down to this: do we advocate for laws that give companies the ability to decide what is right/safe for the public, or do we advocate for laws that reflect trust in the individual? This is a really great way to put it, and it applies broadly to so many fundamental disagreements in the tech world. I firmly believe it’s better to trust the individual—so I think users should be able to sideload iOS apps (o…

Absolutely when it comes to tech. It's fairly inconsequential sideloading something to your phone. Medical devices I think should need a someone well versed to work on it. With cars, the current model most states in the US have is a good middle ground. You can do whatever you want to your car, but it needs to pass a safety inspection every 2 years to drive it legally. The inspections in my state are fairly comprehens…

I think we should just have some pretty clear literature that if you modify a device, the manufacturer is not responsible for any injuries it might cause you.

Modify a dishwasher and now it fills your kitchen with soap bubbles? Modify a CPAP machine and get killed by it? Not the manufacturer's fault.

The US is too litigation happy as it is...

Re: New York Senate passes Right to Repair bill

#148

Post by noizejoy »

joshspankit wrote: post #100
eganist wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that if someone modifies their own medical device and gets hurt because of it that they legally only hurt themselves because they had the right to make that choice. Well, while this applies to medical devices, worth noting this doesn't apply to cars, for which safety inspections have existed in many states for quite a while.

I’d argue that it does apply to cars as safety inspections don’t apply when you keep a vehicle within the bounds of private property.

Would that be similar to having an iPhone never connected to the Internet?

Re: New York Senate passes Right to Repair bill

#149

Post by Wowfunhappy »

Teknoman117 wrote: post #147
spicybright wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely when it comes to tech. It's fairly inconsequential sideloading something to your phone. Medical devices I think should need a someone well versed to work on it. With cars, the current model most states in the US have is a good middle ground. You can do whatever you want to your car, but it needs to pass a safety inspection every 2 years to drive it legally. The inspections in my state are fairly comprehens…

I think we should just have some pretty clear literature that if you modify a device, the manufacturer is not responsible for any injuries it might cause you. Modify a dishwasher and now it fills your kitchen with soap bubbles? Modify a CPAP machine and get killed by it? Not the manufacturer's fault. The US is too litigation happy as it is...

IANAL or even a law-enthusiast, but surely we already have case law on this if nothing else? You can't sue the car company if you remove the breaks in your car... right?

Re: New York Senate passes Right to Repair bill

#150

Post by noizejoy »

spicybright wrote: post #142
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but it’s clear we must both lower costs (fix repair laws) and provide free medical care for everyone. So fixing repair is one important step towards an end goal of health care for everyone.

I agree, but I'd also say there's a line between inconsequential things like a chair motor, and something giving life support to someone. It would suck to die because the repair guy didn't solder the wire correctly. It's really tough to draw that line though, and it's in the manufactures interest $ + lawsuit wise to play it safe.

Money wasted leads to money not available for life support.
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