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King County, WA bans facial recognition software

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Re: King County, WA bans facial recognition software

#141
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's the problem. The problem is that the justice system believes that it's enough to convict someone of a crime.

Even just arresting them or bringing them in for assessment is enough to put someone in a dangerous position, because cops can effectively legally execute people. So the problem is any police interaction is potentially deadly and this is giving cops another arbitrary, potentially racist tool to interact with people who are just living their lives.

Let me ask you a question: How many unarmed people were killed by police in 2020?

Re: King County, WA bans facial recognition software

#142
Let's go further with facial recognition?

Let companies use on our children. Let companies/government scan our kids from birth to death.

Put cameras in schools, on every street corner, government buildings, parks, doctor's offices, and of course scan every face that goes through governmental facilities (DMV, Criminal/civil courts). Put cameras in all stores. Put a Ring type camera on every residence.

Government could then predict whom will most likely succeed in our complicated, competive society.

The good kids will go to the best schools of course. The good adults will get preferential treatment in hiring, loan accusation, housing, etc.

Stores will track our every buy. Stores will know I stole an olive from Whole Foods once.

STD's will be a thing if the past. We will know who likes to booze it up. We will know what percentage of fast food they consume, and we will definitely know who uses tobacco.

We can do away with Credit Scores. We can do away with most tests. We will be able to predict a person's future success with data.

Cops can give up patrols, and just use AI programs to catch bad guys, or prostitutes.

This is Not the future I want.

I cannot believe Americans are even putting up with the surveillance we already have.

(The only thing I like about cameras/surveillance is it might make cops a bit more honest?)

Re: King County, WA bans facial recognition software

#143
I hate to exercise my lawyer brain, but this ordinance is tailored in a somewhat weird way that it seems to me it would prohibit the county sheriff and other agencies from posting any kind of photo on Facebook, which has the ability to segment human faces and tag people, or an application like iOS Photos or Google Photos.

The ordinance is here if this is a permalink. https://mkcclegisearch.kingcounty.gov/View.ashx?M=F&ID=94173...

Re: King County, WA bans facial recognition software

#144

Genuine question - why not ban cameras altogether? Or ban the use of computers in police stations, make them write up all their reports by hand. I truly don't understand why there would be a line at facial recognition, it's just a law against making a process more efficient. It's clear to me that there should be a line to prevent fully convicting someone of a crime without any humans in the loop at all. Don't replace…

Watch Netflix' Coded Bias if you want a deeper understanding of the political motivations here - and they really are almost purely political.

I'm not for an instant saying that there aren't any implications in terms of how the technology can and should be deployed - but some people just want to be angry and offended despite a lack of understanding of what they're actually on about.

Facial recognition struggles to accurately identify black people and women.

The difficulties around both are probably around edge and contour detection:

Black people have darker skin and less angular features - the shadows on their faces are not only harder to see (due to blending with skin-tone), but softer to begin with.

Women routinely leave the home wearing enough makeup to not only look less like themselves, but often look more like other women.

There are ways to mitigate these issues to some extent: cameras that work better in low light and codecs that do a better job of encoding relative rather than absolute light levels will do a better job of preserving the information in the faces of people with darker complexions.

As far as makeup is concerned, it can misrepresent the shape of a face - if you only have one angle.

Treating the face shape as invariant as Δt -> 0 and running on video (even better with multiple synchronised cameras) will allow for topography extraction despite dealing with someone deliberately misrepresenting what they look like.

Re: King County, WA bans facial recognition software

#145
post #65

Genuine question - why not ban cameras altogether? Or ban the use of computers in police stations, make them write up all their reports by hand. I truly don't understand why there would be a line at facial recognition, it's just a law against making a process more efficient. It's clear to me that there should be a line to prevent fully convicting someone of a crime without any humans in the loop at all. Don't replace…

Everything else that you described – computers, digital records – has simple algorithms understandable by the average police officer or citizen. You type a document, it gets saved. You can do a full text search on it. You can pull up an old case and look at photos. You can quickly cross reference. All these tasks could be done step by step by a person and it would just take more time. When it comes to facial recoloni…

There are many tools to help make feature activations in Computer Vision interpretable by humans.

Class Activation Mapping [0] and Salience Maps are some of the most used and intuitive approaches. Lime and Shap [1] are tools to visually represent feature activation in an understandable way.

The idea that we have no idea what is going on with machine learning models is just flat out wrong.

[0]http://cnnlocalization.csail.mit.edu/

[1]https://github.com/slundberg/shap

Re: King County, WA bans facial recognition software

#146
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that constant surveillance of people makes exerting power over them trivial.

So then that is the actual problem, try to fix that problem instead of banning it. Allowing people to own gun also make it trivially easy to kill people. So ban gun ?

For your analogy: yes, guns should be banned. That bottle has been opened in most places in the world, and some countries have actually put the genie back in, and it has resulted in dramatically lower gun death rates. The UK for example, as it has one of the lowest gun homicide death rates in the world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_the_Uni...

Moreover, yes, other deeply awful weapons are also banned. Biological weapons and Chemical weapons are both widely banned by all decent countries in the world. Nuclear weapons should join this list. They almost did, during the Reagan era: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/01/ronald-...

Re: King County, WA bans facial recognition software

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There may not be enough unsolved violent crime to justify facial recognition, but one thing there is too much of in Seattle, Portland, SF, LA, NYC is un-prosecuted violent crime.

Do you have any sources I can read through on this? I'm very interested to hear that this is the case.

There's a great book on ~roughly this topic - Ghettoside, by Jill Leovy. The thesis is that police in some cities (her work is in LA, but I lived in Chicago for a while and the idea transfers seamlessly) do an abysmal job of solving homicides.

That has all sorts of knock-on effects: people close to a murder victim lose the sense that the state will do something about their loss, so they take the matter into their own hands; people who commit homicide are a tiny minority but if they're not apprehended, they can keep committing homicides, which makes a broader society feel less safe; people sense that the state, their city, their neighbors, etc don't care about them because if the homicide was of someone in a richer neighborhood, it would be more likely to be solved; etc. Been a while since I read it so I'm forgetting a lot.

I think this goes some way towards explaining why people in neighborhoods where lots of violent crime is committed have such ambivalent feelings about the police - they are at once underpoliced (police don't solve major crimes in their neighborhood) and overpoliced (police bust people for all kinds of small-time stuff, which has devastating long-term consequences).

At the same time as all of the above, it's also true that it's basically never been safer to live in a big American city (ok ok, at least since like the 1960s - before then the picture gets significantly more complicated). So it's safer than ever, but big crimes don't get prosecuted or solved, unless they happen in the "right" neighborhoods. The solution therefore isn't more of the same police; maybe it's more policing but the policing itself needs to change.

Re: King County, WA bans facial recognition software

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any sources I can read through on this? I'm very interested to hear that this is the case.

Not a read, but this feature from KOMO goes over the Seattle situation pretty well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WijoL3Hy_Bw

That piece, and KOMO's larger project, are toxic right-wing propaganda. Please don't consider that a reliable source.

Re: King County, WA bans facial recognition software

#149

I can understand wanting to put heavy restrictions on the use of this technology, for example a rule that someone cannot be arrested based on software alone, and a rule that it can only be used to help identify individuals that are clearly committing a crime. But it seems to me to be batshit insane to ban it completely. If we have video of, say, an armed robbery, and we (only) use software to get a suspect list befor…

I won't lie, I truly understand the knee-jerk reaction to Orwellian surveillance by a police state. It's creepy, but is somewhat in place via semi constant NSA tracking that gets re-upped by private Senate hearings, so that's neither here nor there.... However, as far as facial recognition tracking goes, this doesn't seem like it needs to be an "All or Nothing" agreement, as you say Why can't we use facial recognition software with mugshots to narrow a list of suspects. Or use facial recognition software to enhance police work instead of doing a prosecutor's job. It's possible to ban facial recognition in certain arenas instead of alltogether.

Re: King County, WA bans facial recognition software

#150
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we forced the cops to wear their badge numbers, we'd know who was committing the violence and they could be prosecuted for it.

If someone is beating me, I'm not likely to be able to focus on his number and memorize it. When a thug put his gun in my face to rob me, I later could describe the gun in great detail, but not his face.

I'm not sure how this conversation changed to talk about police brutality, but I think the argument is that if there is a bystander watching or recording, the police officer can later be identified.

Compare to a situation in which identification is not required and the officer can't be identified even with video evidence.

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