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Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

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Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#141

Post by mullen »

reedjosh wrote: post #122
CogitoCogito wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Today's voters are capable of electing representatives who could repeal that amendment. It's not like voters are left without recourse.

I do not believe this true. War over the past 20 years has been overwhelmingly unpopular. Have we in the US been able to stop that? What then also of the minority that lives under these laws? I never once consented to them, and yet must submit to the majority.

> What then also of the minority that lives under these laws? I never once consented to them, and yet must submit to the majority.

And you receive their benefit too. You might not like paying taxes but you receive the benefit of paying taxes, that is why you are forced to pay taxes like everyone else. Some people get more benefit than others but we all get something from paying taxes. If you don't like paying taxes, then you are free to move to a place where there are no taxes and no benefit from them. I recommend Somalia, I heard it's lovely this time of year.

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#142

Post by lainga »

mustafa_pasi wrote: post #138

I find these property rights that go back centuries a bit dubious. How was the property obtained in the first place? There were no modern laws at the time and common people had much fewer rights and protections. If the property was not obtained through outright violence, it was obtained in an environment that very much discriminated against common people, and God knows how much fraud and deception occurred. It actual…

Out of interest, was it the Ottoman conquest of the Mamluks (who were later replaced by the Brits or French)?

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#143

Post by Spooky23 »

BobbyJo wrote: post #80
nomercy400 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of strange that the Dutch are blamed for this, when the British took over mid-1600 and the Americans after the independence war end-1700. Those are two moments where this whole notion of feudal estates could easily have been abolished, but for some reason the new rulers decided against this.

Did they decide against it, or did they just not pay any attention to the area at all?

A little bit of both. Albany was a minor transport and trading hub where Dutch remained the primary language for some time. It later became a regional banking and rail/canal hub.

Most of the patroon land started getting sold off as the value skyrocketed when the Erie Canal and railroads were built. The area I initially referred to was a backwater area where the land had limited value due to topography.

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#144

Post by koolba »

> The feudal arrangement is so unusual it has prompted questions in parliament. Last year, MPs asked the economy minister if there were legal avenues to abolish the “burden”.

That seems like it would have the reverse effect of acknowledging its legitimacy, at the very least retroactively.

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#145

Post by mellavora »

acheron wrote: post #120
jmkb wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My favorite piece-of-land word is "gore," which is either a triangular parcel formed where roads intersect at an acute angle, or a narrow strip of land (usually also an acute triangle) of uncertain ownership resulting from inaccurate surveying. It's derived from the Old English word for spear, which also came to mean stab, and a stab wound, and eventually blood-n-guts in general.

Yep. Old English word for spear was "gar". One vegetable was related to the leek, but they described the clove as spear-shaped: the gar-leek. https://www.etymonline.com/word/garlic

And interestingly enough, the Swedish word for the fish which is called "pike" in English is "gär".

Lots of Nordic words in old English.

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#146

Post by Aperocky »

jandrese wrote: post #129
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not at all. But being a Baron over somebody may have obligations? If they were not rendered (it was all neglected for 60 years) perhaps something could be negotiated based on that. E.g. the baron provides protection - that certainly wasn't happening. And I do note that there's obligation to the Baron's lord. Doing an appeal there is another route.

Presumably the family would be on the hook for raising a militia and commanding it when a neighboring city invaded.

Or the population rebelled.

Unfortunately, they did, now cometh with your militia and collect your taxes.

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#147

Post by reedjosh »

mullen wrote: post #141
reedjosh wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not believe this true. War over the past 20 years has been overwhelmingly unpopular. Have we in the US been able to stop that? What then also of the minority that lives under these laws? I never once consented to them, and yet must submit to the majority.

> What then also of the minority that lives under these laws? I never once consented to them, and yet must submit to the majority. And you receive their benefit too. You might not like paying taxes but you receive the benefit of paying taxes, that is why you are forced to pay taxes like everyone else. Some people get more benefit than others but we all get something from paying taxes. If you don't like paying taxes,…

And what of the wars?

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#148

Post by Ichthypresbyter »

mschuster91 wrote: post #83
Joker_vD wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect that none of the European countries to the eastern side of the Iron Curtain retained feudal law, or much of the "legacy" law in general. That, I guess, is one of the few potential upsides of any revolution: an opportunity arises to just throw away a lot of pre-existing arrangements and re-draw them anew in (hopefully) more sensible way. Of course, the quality of the new design and/or its implementation is n…

> I suspect that none of the European countries to the eastern side of the Iron Curtain retained feudal law, or much of the "legacy" law in general. Rather make that "no country other than the US and UK+Commonwealth countries". These two countries are probably the only ones in the world that haven't suffered any kind of comprehensive revolution in the last 100 years, and it shows. Not just in the absurd amount of pre…

A lot of countries in Western Europe haven't had a revolution since the early 19th century. Yes, many of them were briefly occupied by the Nazis, but after liberation the pre-war constitution was reinstated.

For instance, the Dutch still claim that their Constitution dates from 1815 (though it has been substantially rewritten several times, most recently in 1983).

The reason why courts in the Anglosphere rely so much on precedent and case law while those in Continental Europe and its former colonies don't isn't a lack of revolutions (except insofar as Napoleon would have replaced common law with the Code Napoleon had he made it across the Channel). It's that legal codes developed differently in England and in the rest of Europe in the medieval period.

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#149

Post by AdrianB1 »

FpUser wrote: post #91
AdrianB1 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you assume taxes are a payment for services? In most cases there is no written contract with rights and obligations of each party and there is no implied right or obligation of any sort.

>"Why do you assume taxes are a payment for services?" Because the only alternative in this case is the outright theft. >"there is no implied right or obligation of any sort." Sorry but there is implied obligation. I totally expect to get some services in return for money taken from me and I suspect I am not alone. For experiment try sending part of government that does actual services for constituents for a year lon…

If you expect something it does not make it an obligation for the other party to deliver. Maybe that alternative is true?

Re: Italian seaside residents hit with bygone feudal tax

#150

Post by microtherion »

pjc50 wrote: post #7

Now wondering which European countries still have intact feudal law. Scotland abolished feudal tenure in 2000: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolition_of_Feudal_Tenure_etc... ; most of the feu burdens were abolished or explicitly ported across. England&Wales still retains the feudal system in places and occasionally people are hit by "chancel repair liability" or somesuch. The chivalric court still exists: https://en…

One curious case is Church Taxes in Switzerland, where the state collects taxes on behalf of three traditional Christian denominations. For individuals, this is often no big deal; if you don't want to pay, you just write a letter declaring you want to leave the church.

However, in most Swiss cantons, legal entities are also subject to church taxes, and get to pick neither the denomination to whom they pay, nor do they get to leave the church. It was explained to me that this was a compensation deal worked out when the state expropriated the monasteries in Switzerland in the 19th century.

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