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Hover.com: we store & email passwords in plaintext for usability

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Re: Hover.com: we store & email passwords in plaintext for usability

#141
post #20

This isn't a microblogging service or pet social network. A domain registrar is storing your password in plaintext? Really? Didn't we go over this a thousand times? If I was on Hover (which I considered), I'd transfer my domains immediately. Moving to a plaintext password system to get fewer support requests is like removing the door from your house so you don't have to keep fumbling for the key.

After some positive research, I just purchased two domains from Hover. This is unacceptable however and I will be moving them away. What registrar would anyone say is the most security focused and/or government resistant? Maybe it should be a 2011 AskHN?

007names.com is doing good here

Re: Hover.com: we store & email passwords in plaintext for usability

#142
post #20

This isn't a microblogging service or pet social network. A domain registrar is storing your password in plaintext? Really? Didn't we go over this a thousand times? If I was on Hover (which I considered), I'd transfer my domains immediately. Moving to a plaintext password system to get fewer support requests is like removing the door from your house so you don't have to keep fumbling for the key.

It's not just domain registrars, I reset the password of my basecamphq.com account (which stores very confidential project information) last week, and received this email: Hi -name-, Can't remember your password? Don't worry about it — it happens. We can help. Username: -username- Password: -password in plain text- Please keep your password safe to prevent unauthorized access. It blows my mind that even 37signals fal…

I'm surprised you haven't been prompted to upgrade your account. 37signals switched to a new login system 18 months ago which doesn't store passwords in the clear. With a new login you get a regular password reset email.

Re: Hover.com: we store & email passwords in plaintext for usability

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not if the link can time-out or expire after X [days, minutes, seconds, ect]. When I think of emailing my self the password, I think of storing it in plain text in my email account. When I think of authentication via email I think of a one time use link that allows me to log into a session.

Email is sent in plaintext. It'd be easy enough for an attacker to request an email authentication (which it then sniffs in transit). Expiry time doesn't help much. Email auth really should be done as Joakal says - your public key stored on their server when you sign up, email auth is encrypted. Trouble is, it's "too hard" for "normal people". If gmail/outlook etc supported it, though, it could catch on.

We're starting out from the position that my email is the keys to my digital castle... good or bad as that may be, if someone can reliably sniff my email in transit they already own my life.

Re: Hover.com: we store & email passwords in plaintext for usability

#144
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love this idea. 90% of the time when I use a forgot password link, I'm really trying to auth-by-email. I'm not sure how it would work for reusable links, since that becomes auth-by-URL, which seems significantly less secure— maybe putting HTTP auth in the url would be less likely to be logged at any point?

wouldn't oauth (by gmail perhaps?) be a better solution to this?

It is oauth for all intents and purposes— a third party (your email server) authenticates you as the owner of the email address and passes you a secure token.

It's worse in some ways (control, usability, security) and better in others (simpler technologically, everyone has it).

Re: Hover.com: we store & email passwords in plaintext for usability

#145
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't vouch for "security focused" - but Gandi.net have so far never let me down. They're based in France, so not susceptible to US law (dependent on the TLD you use of course) and have a huge variety of TLDs. Can't recommend Gandi enough, they do exactly what they say on the tin - "no bullshit".

Gandi is pretty awesome, but just be aware that your credit card company might freeze your card the first time you buy from them (apparently buying domain names in other countries is a fraud trigger) :D

Never had that problem with Gandi but buying digital goods from Facebook froze my card. Apparently they were a hive for credit card thief testing at that point in time because of the low value of virtual gifts (1 US cent?).

Re: Hover.com: we store & email passwords in plaintext for usability

#146

tl;dr: guy from hover, mea culpa, new code on the way. I thought it might help to provide some further deets on that blog post. I don't think we're making a case there, or providing an excuse - it certainly wasn't my intent to try and convince anyone of anything when I wrote that, but rather, it was an exercise to explain where we were (with that and other development projects) and where we were going. We've gone bac…

Fwiw, let me share some of the less predictable consequences of what could happen if your pwd database is hacked, and why it's important to use bcrypt, PBKDF2, or scrypt to secure your users passwords. ( http://codahale.com/how-to-safely-store-a-password/ ) I was one of the folks whose email and password were compromised in the recent MtGox.com bitcoin exchange attack. Until then I had been using a three-tier passwor…

I also had my details leaks via the MtGox.com hack. Fortunately I have been using a password manager for years (Keepass) and don't share passwords site-to-site. So I don't fuck around with security, or try not to.

But, you do. It's hindsight, sure, but if you read HN you definitely know better, yet you did it anyway. You've learned your lesson, and hopefully the next time a service you frequent is hacked your exposure will be minimal. But it took something like this for that to happen. I'm thinking a lot of sites have had shitty security for years like Hover et al and are only now, with all the publicity surrounding recent breaches of security, beginning to realize they can't get away with it for much longer.

So just like anyone can cut you some slack, I can cut organizations some slack, for now, especially in cases like this where it looks like someone without the requisite technical expertise was given too much control over technical decisions (i.e. not the engineers' fault). That kind of shit happens all the time even if it ideally shouldn't. But, things have changed and security concerns have gained enough publicity that even clueless middle managers should have some inkling that it's important, so IMVHO if you haven't gotten your shit together security-wise as an organization by the end of this year, you're probably inept enough that I shouldn't be doing business with you.

In the meantime I'll practice the security diligence I preach.

Re: Hover.com: we store & email passwords in plaintext for usability

#147

Blaming Hover.com is shooting the messenger. The problem here is that this is what customers want . As long as you ask Hover to compete for business in a race to the bottom of the "convenience" barrel, you are going to have this problem. If Hover stop doing this, someone else wil come along and take Hover's business by sending plaintext passwords around in email. So. You either live with it and do your business with…

What a horribly wrong comment.

First off, nobody chooses their domain registrar because it provides plain text lost passwords instead of something more secure. That is such a silly claim that I would hope you don't actually believe it. However, people will certainly leave a domain registrar based on an insecure password policy. This is especially true of the people who frequent domain registrar services.

Second, you claim the market is failing. It's doing exactly the opposite. You are commenting on a widely read post with hundreds of comments and many thousands of views that is in the process of putting a black mark on this stupid company as we speak. They will get a nontrivial number of emails and cancellations referring to this post, and I guarantee they change their policy within the month. This is exactly how the market is supposed to work.

Re: Hover.com: we store & email passwords in plaintext for usability

#148

tl;dr: guy from hover, mea culpa, new code on the way. I thought it might help to provide some further deets on that blog post. I don't think we're making a case there, or providing an excuse - it certainly wasn't my intent to try and convince anyone of anything when I wrote that, but rather, it was an exercise to explain where we were (with that and other development projects) and where we were going. We've gone bac…

A couple things here:

1) I simply don't believe your claim that the number of stolen emails is so high that sending password retrieval links via email is unfeasible. This isn't a new problem that is just faced by hover.com, and most solve it without resorting to plain text passwords.

2) You aren't taking a wide enough view here. By storing and sending plaintext passwords you are doing more than making someone's hover.com account insecure. You are creating a weak link that may reveal a user's password that is used in any number of places. If I were to use hover.com, and someone got access to your DB, they would get my 2nd tier PW and instantly have access to my Facebook account and a number of other things that could cause havoc in my life. This seems obvious, but there is little to no acknowledgement of this fact in the post above.

3) Trust has been lost, as account security is clearly not a priority among your engineers. You may change things, but those changes will be made by someone who thought storing plain text passwords and sending those passwords in email is OK. Even after passwords are no longer sent around via email, who knows what kinds of other security flaws will remain that aren't clearly explained on the corporate blog?

With all this being said, it's great that you came here to acknowledge fault. Best of luck to you, but I have to say that I won't ever be a customer.

Re: Hover.com: we store & email passwords in plaintext for usability

#149
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After some positive research, I just purchased two domains from Hover. This is unacceptable however and I will be moving them away. What registrar would anyone say is the most security focused and/or government resistant? Maybe it should be a 2011 AskHN?

Name.com is great. They don't try to obfuscate the UI to make it more user friendly. Straight access to the DNS records, simple clean design. Here's an old link to a comment I had discussing them: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1766590

That very thread convinced me to switch to name.com six months ago. They're great.

Re: Hover.com: we store & email passwords in plaintext for usability

#150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just domain registrars, I reset the password of my basecamphq.com account (which stores very confidential project information) last week, and received this email: Hi -name-, Can't remember your password? Don't worry about it — it happens. We can help. Username: -username- Password: -password in plain text- Please keep your password safe to prevent unauthorized access. It blows my mind that even 37signals fal…

I'm surprised you haven't been prompted to upgrade your account. 37signals switched to a new login system 18 months ago which doesn't store passwords in the clear. With a new login you get a regular password reset email.

Why should basecamp even need to prompt the user to upgrade their account to the new login system? Why don't 37signals just do it?
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