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I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

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Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#141
post #91

The article doesn't mention the #1 problem with tech hiring: leetcode. Some advice for recruiters: try starting your emails with "NO LEETCODE" in the subject line and watch your response rate from senior experienced engineers skyrocket! There is an artificial "shortage" caused by this barrier.

I hear it gets a lot of flak. What's wrong with Leetcode or how does it distort the job market?

Leetcode implies complex, contrived algorithm scenarios presented to be taken apart in a brief interview (usually at most 40 minutes for the coding question). Real world scenarios do not resemble leetcode questions, and hard real world problems are solved with more time and careful thought.

This creates serious inertia. Once you are 3-4+ years into a job, you probably haven't done much leetcode studying in a while outside of you doing interviews yourself. Interviewing at other companies is actually a pain in the ass, so it's often not worth the bother.

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#142
Problem no. 5. Companies already have too many developers.

At some point there just aren't enough qualified, talented, experienced, good developers left to hire, because they were already hired. Some companies simply have too many developers, and the bar already isn't high. They think that just because they can afford to pay a developer, that that's what they should be doing, rather than reorganizing and utilizing their existing resources better.

Want to become a plumber? You'll have to apprentice for 4-5 years (at minimum wage) and work 2,000 hours and/or 250 classroom hours. You can then take a state-accredited exam and become a licensed journeyman plumber, renewing your license periodically.

Want to become a software developer? Go to 130-440 hours of boot camp classes with no on-the-job training. Congrats, here's your insane starting salary, now go struggle to make a rudimentary web app with no idea why somebody keeps asking you to run this thing called the "ping command".

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#143

Hard to take this seriously with all the straw men and broad generalizations. Reality check: there has never been a hotter seller's market for software engineering talent. The fact that you have not landed a job does not mean that supply is not short in general. Rather than blowing your stack at some recruiter who you heard on a podcast interview, you might want to reflect on yourself and how you might be coming off…

> It's easy to write a blog post about how companies need to pay more, but hard to reconcile the reality that if they don't have FAANG cash flows, "market rate" for developers may not be viable, regardless of management's good intentions or lack thereof.

Is that a sign of monopoly? When a handful of corporations have vastly more resources than the rest of the industry?

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#144
post #32

If you've ever been on the other end of the pipe for hiring you'll understand the need for filtering. The alternative is to never list jobs and hire through networks, which has other problems.

I've never been on the other side of things, but it's always fascinated me that so many people who have say things like this. It's hard for me to fathom that such a large proportion of candidates are terrible.

If you want an intuitive way to think about it:

> That means, in this horribly simplified universe, that the entire world could consist of 1,000,000 programmers, of whom the worst 199 keep applying for every job and never getting them, but the best 999,801 always get jobs as soon as they apply for one. So every time a job is listed the 199 losers apply, as usual, and one guy from the pool of 999,801 applies, and he gets the job, of course, because he’s the best, and now, in this contrived example, every employer thinks they’re getting the top 0.5% when they’re actually getting the top 99.9801%.

https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2005/01/27/news-58/

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#145

This person sounded really experienced, so I looked them up on LinkedIn. 7 months at their first company. 9 months at their current company. That's it, aside from non-programming jobs before their bootcamp. The whole thing reads like inventing scenarios that didn't happen or embellishing them. > A bad interview is when you ask them the definition of some specific thing in some specific framework like “Tell me what a…

> Are any companies actually trying to recruit like this? And is it successful beyond just throwing up a hiring post and not getting anything?

During an active season (spring, fall, usually) I get one of these a day, or every other day at least. Other times it slows to a trickle--1 a week or so. Usually it's some "I have an urgent requirement for a 6 months contract position for $45/hr. with (litany of skills/responsibilities that screams shitty Dilbert-esque cesspool). This is for in person only at (place on the east coast which would require me to uproot my family and move across country)" style content. Some of the more amusing ones are for contract positions in the Bay Area--those usually have people who, bless their hearts, think they're making an effort with $75-$80/hr rates.

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are any companies actually trying to recruit like this? I get some very crappy spam offers like that every few weeks. 35K to be a Java dev in Atlanta kind of thing. They do happen.

I had a few like this particularly when I was first entering the field professionally, but not so much anymore. I had one that wanted me to move out to some random town outside myrtle beach for around $17/h iirc.

I have two years experience, so I am newish.

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#147
You can't talk about a shortage of something if you aren't specifying the price you are offering. It's like me saying there's a shortage of new Porsche 911s because I only have $20,000 and can't seem to buy one anywhere. If I had $100K in my pocket, I would not observe any shortage. Same thing for tech workers. You can't just offer the usual compensation and standard benefits and then say "See, we just can't seem to find anyone! Obviously there's a shortage!"

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#148
post #32

If you've ever been on the other end of the pipe for hiring you'll understand the need for filtering. The alternative is to never list jobs and hire through networks, which has other problems.

I've never been on the other side of things, but it's always fascinated me that so many people who have say things like this. It's hard for me to fathom that such a large proportion of candidates are terrible.

I've interviewed a ton of bootcamp and "I took a class on Udemy so I'm a Full Stack Engineer(TM) now" candidates in the past year. There have been some really good engineers hired from bootcamps, but a lot of people just didn't learn how to code.

Bootcamps are hit or miss, but sometimes I think they spend more time on having their students create shiny LinkedIn and GitHub profiles to impress recruiters than teaching them how to write software.

That or the "I've been working with Drupal for 10 years" and now I'm applying to a position looking for 4ish years of Java. Sometimes I need someone with experience and that's just not going to cut it.

My favorite is getting word doc resumes filled with red squiggles. How am I going to trust you to care about accurate code when you can't be bothered to spell check a resume.

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#149
post #14

I literally can’t relate to this on any level. I’m an HM at a company that pays on the order of a FANG and at best matches one of these credentialist barriers and yet we can’t come close to hiring targets on devs. I don’t get how people can see the plethora of individuals under 10yrs experience in SWE and other tech roles in SV/NYC/SEA with incomes of $250-600k/yr and think this happens without a “shortage” of talent…

I've mentioned this on HN before, but I have 10+ years experience, a BS in CS from a top 10 school, worked as SWE at Google for over 3 years, I've done 100+ leetcode questions, studied grokking the systems interview/designing data intensive applications, I live in the Bay Area, and I've _still_ failed 90% of my onsites last few years at the top tech companies (Stripe, Lyft, AirBnB, Square, Dropbox, etc).

Reasons for failure vary, you don't get much feedback but when I've gotten it it's been distributed across coding/systems/behavioral.

I've also been rejected at resume round by companies like Instacart and Coinbase.

The interview bar has gotten insanely high it seems. And I left Google way back without anything lined up assuming in this job market I could waltz into a good job with some modest prep but that has not been the case.

I objectively have top credentials, and I find tech interviewing an absolute nightmare. The standards have gone through the roof and one slip up and you get dinged. And the system is way more arbitrary and subjective than anyone admits.

Now, this isn't a woe-is-me story becasue to your point, there's a lot of companies paying top dollar and I have a decently paid job. Furthermore, I'm not failing interviews at random startups but as senior engineer at top companies that would probably offer $400k if they made an offer. They have the right to be extremely picky and subjective, but let's at least admit that they _are_ extremely picky and subjective.

The "I'm a HM and can't hit dev targets", reeks of ignorance as to your own process. I wonder if you do things like tell your interviewers "a false negative is better than a false positive" ? Or let one interviewer use some arbitrary criteria to dock a candidate and then pass on them because of one bad score? Because you probably do lack perspective on how many good devs your company is rejecting if you're only sitting on the HM chair and not seeing what it feels like to go through these rounds as an IC SWE.

Re: I am sick and tired of hearing tech companies complain about developer shortages

#150

Hard to take this seriously with all the straw men and broad generalizations. Reality check: there has never been a hotter seller's market for software engineering talent. The fact that you have not landed a job does not mean that supply is not short in general. Rather than blowing your stack at some recruiter who you heard on a podcast interview, you might want to reflect on yourself and how you might be coming off…

> It's easy to write a blog post about how companies need to pay more, but hard to reconcile the reality that if they don't have FAANG cash flows, "market rate" for developers may not be viable, regardless of management's good intentions or lack thereof. Is that a sign of monopoly? When a handful of corporations have vastly more resources than the rest of the industry?

It might be if it wasn’t false:

https://www.economist.com/business/2021/05/16/how-to-thrive-...

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