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How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

theatlantic.com

141–150 of 247 posts

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#141

> In law, graduates of top-10 schools make on average half more than graduates of schools ranked 21 to 100 When you consider where the people who graduate from top-10 schools live, this is neither surprising nor impressive. Most of these law grads live in NYC/Chicago/DC/SF/LA or a handful of other expensive cities. They make good money — starting salaries are around $200k — but they also pay tons in rent, mortgages,…

That's a weird wording: Half more would mean 50% more (so not double, but 1.5x)? I think the real reason people willingly take on that Big City grind is to have a shot at making partner at a top firm (which would mean they make 10x more than their midwest prairie dweller counterparts).

Yes, it is very weird wording. It is also strange that the comparison omits graduates of schools ranked 11-20. Those schools are not as prestigious as the top-10, but their graduates (like me) go on to practice in the same expensive cities so their salaries are in the same order of magnitude.

Including this cohort in the comparison would have made the not-shocking 50% gap even less impressive.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#142

>Busyness has become a badge of honor as elites boast of their workloads: A 2015 advertisement for The Wall Street Journal stated, “People who don’t have time make time to read The Wall Street Journal.” It's the hustle culture of capitalism applied to every facet of life. If you're not productive every single moment, you're falling behind and your self worth deserves to decline because of it. We've eliminated any "sl…

Maybe most of contemporary employment is slavery as people like David Greaber, Noam Chomsky & Nassim Taleb have asserted.

The problem with a change that alters this however, is that you may be tampering with the bread of alot of powerful people.

There alot of incentives for the powerful to keep things the way they are.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea that this is a movement against elites when it is literally spearheaded by an elite is just absurd. Yet if you cast your gaze upon history, you'll find that many social movements are indeed led against members of a political class by members of that very same political class. Many leaders of communist revolutions, for example, come from wealthy families and not the oppressed proletariat that they claim to…

Trump supporters idolize elites almost exclusively. From Trump, to CEOs, to Giuliani, to Tucker Carlson, to Bill Barr, to Bill O'Reilly, to Ted Cruz, to Josh Hawley. This is not a movement that happens to have a single elite as the head, it is a movement by elites. > Yes, Trump is an elite. However, he was still able to present himself as being against the elites, especially because he doesn't move in the same social…

The above un-informed screed is amusing, since it illustrates how the left thinks they know what they're talking about and what's best for others, when they have no clue.

>> he doesn't move in the same social circles as those elites > That's just untrue.

It is true - Trump never was a New York A-lister or B-lister. He could move in business circles, but not social ones.

> they will keep drawing the wrong conclusions about what to do.

His supporters wanted a wall, and he started construction on it.

Harris is supposed to be the immigration czar, yet she's afraid to be photographed near the border, because there's no wall.

The CCP engaged in trade violations, and he addressed that with tariffs.

Sounds like the right conclusions to me, even obvious.

> Trump supporters don't like reality as it is

His supporters like that he was willing to be their voice against the establishment in competing globally in the job market against illegal aliens, instead of being dismissed by the left as "deplorables."

> you never need to switch jobs

For most people, especially as they get older, there is no option for switching jobs - either you get on long-term disability or you're homeless. This one phrase proves how out of touch you are with reality.

Sometimes people don't appreciate what they have until it's gone.

The Democratic party and White House staff are infested with CCP lobbyists, including Biden's family and his Chief of Staff. Since the CCP has been in a cold war with the US since the 1950s, I hope it turns out well, but Trump/Pompeo had a clear strategy, and Biden doesn't.

As an illustration of what the CCP wants, consider rare earths or 5G. China has world-wide monopolies on those - but their goal is world-wide monopolies on everything, regardless of dumping rules.

Trump was the best and most productive US President in the past 75 years. Shame on the left for two baseless impeachments that prevented our leader from even accomplishing more.

You should know what you're talking about before posting screeds on HN. But then I could say the same thing about most of the left - it would be nice to have paradise on earth, but Marxism doesn't get you there.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#144
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I went the opposite, initially wanted humanities (history) but went into CS/Math for money. I ended up quitting after two years and just taking an associates (started at a community college,) but I wish I’d have stuck with humanities. I already knew programming from doing web design as a kid and trying to start a dozen companies so I didn’t learn much and I passed all my classes with flying colors despite hardly ever…

If you don't mind, what are you doing for a living now?

I’m a full stack engineer at a YC funded start up

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#145
I have a (perhaps unpopular) pet theory that college as we know it going to cease to exist sometime in the next several decades. In its current direction it feels like it’s becoming more about gaming the system. Those who do the “best” are really just the best at looking like the best.

I saw so many of my peers in college “learning” strictly for the sake of getting good grades, not to understand the material conceptually. I’ll try an analogy—-it feels like college is social media and students are aspiring influencers, all jockeying to find the right aesthetic and be that perfect shining light with all the followers but it turns out they’re all optimizing to the same local max and end up as copies of copies of copies. In the end all their resumes look the same. A bit drab, sweeping, and cynical, admittedly, but that’s what I think.

Anyway, my theory is that with ubiquitous high speed Internet, remote work being more widely acceptable, and continued suburbanization, future generations will look less favorably at taking on a huge debt burden to attend in-person college and something _like_ highly niche online trade/vocational schools or guilds will become popular and widely acceptable as a substitute for a four year degree in certain positions.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may not be in school any more, but you can still study whatever you want. I went the other direction: studied humanities in school, taught myself programming once I was working as a professional because I found it intriguing, and now I do this for a living. You have a whole lifetime. If you want to learn something, you can do it. Even Einstein got started in his spare time.

Hold on a second. While I totally support self-directed learning, "Even Einstein got started in his spare time" seems to suggest that he learned physics recreationally. My apologies if you did not intend this, but just to clarify, this is definitely not the case. He earned a PhD from the University of Zurich, which is about the most traditional path in theoretical physics education possible!

To be fair it does say, “got started,” which is correct. He got started learning math via self learning.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#147
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am very troubled by this. Because humanities degree holders are the true carriers of our cultures. Local history, news and art you won't find on the internet. You can't read about my town's coal history on wikipedia. A local historian does that. These people are the ones that work with the primary sources, sifitng them and passing on the highlights. As we squeeze these people down we lose our own selves. We need a…

You don't need a humanities degree to document your local coal mine's history or contribute to your local art culture. You do need a STEM degree if you are going to serve your local community as e.g. a doctor or an engineer. I'm not commenting on the relative value of the endeavors, just pointing out that there are opportunity costs associated with choosing a humanities degree over a STEM degree in our current enviro…

I think you significantly underestimate the skills required when constructing history from primary sources. Unleashing someone on an archive without some library science education is very likely to result in a disorganized mess of documents. You need formal organization skills, some knowledge of document forensics and an understanding of standard document practices from the time you are studying.

Also, in order to write clearly you need a lot of years reading and writing practice. You can get that on your own but a humanities degree is going to get most people there faster.

Amateur historians are good to have around but you don't want to run the entire front line of primary source history gathering off them.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few things have changed. College is no longer a tool of social mobility. It is table stakes to keep your current status. If you do not go to college, you are unlikely to stay within the middle class. People may cite plumbers but they don't make a fortune and the physical toll is quite serious. Second, funding has been cut for public universities significantly. A lot of public universities charge tuition that is far…

....... Does being a good golfer really matter for this in the US? I don't like pulling the "haha Americans weird" card but I'm glad my education does not depend on my golf game here in Europe.

A lot of business is done on the course and you always need a lawyer or finance person. Those who can golf get on the foursome and get the credit.

The less athletic smarter ones get sent the work.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#149
post #145

I have a (perhaps unpopular) pet theory that college as we know it going to cease to exist sometime in the next several decades. In its current direction it feels like it’s becoming more about gaming the system. Those who do the “best” are really just the best at looking like the best. I saw so many of my peers in college “learning” strictly for the sake of getting good grades, not to understand the material conceptu…

>I saw so many of my peers in college “learning” strictly for the sake of getting good grades, not to understand the material conceptually.

I can absolutely identify with this. I've seen way too many class mates get way higher grades than me without even really knowing any of the concepts they're supposed to be showcasing. Meanwhile all I ever had was conflict with teachers.

My theory is that school is simply aimed to produce docile bodies that will do what is asked of them. The whole learning bit is just smoke and mirrors to fool you into thinking that it's useful.

Re: How college became a ruthless competition divorced from learning

#150
post #145

I have a (perhaps unpopular) pet theory that college as we know it going to cease to exist sometime in the next several decades. In its current direction it feels like it’s becoming more about gaming the system. Those who do the “best” are really just the best at looking like the best. I saw so many of my peers in college “learning” strictly for the sake of getting good grades, not to understand the material conceptu…

> college as we know it going to cease to exist sometime in the next several decades

Probably not because we live in a crony capitalist society now. It's well established at this point and not likely to change anytime very soon.

College began as a purely elitist cultural institution for the rich. Like all other technologies it was only adopted by the masses once the rich became more bored with it.

The only pre-middle-class-era attendees of University were the highly-religious attending theological schooling and the highly-genius (ala Newton).

In our crony capitalist society college represents a simple and profitable hamster-wheel class separator. The same percentage as has always been will be granted upward mobility while an increasing percentage will remain in place.

Until you convince average intelligence people that college will not grant them wealth, status, or success then they will flock in greater numbers to it like a lottery. They will willingly indebt themselves for a mere chance at a better life.

It's absolutely horrific and disgusting what our society has become. If only we could convince people to focus on strengthening the middle class and having a degree of contentment in life then we could get past the crab in a bucket mentalities that the University system breeds.

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