What nobody says about startup moms • Hacker News Board

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#141

Post by wcarss » Mon, May 03, 2021, 8:52 PM UTC

khawkins wrote: post #139

The author makes a lot of good points until the last paragraph: >We can’t expect more women to succeed in the startup world until we’re able to talk honestly about how much harder startups are for those who want to spend a lot of time with their kids...We’ll never reach our potential as female founders until we acknowledge that each woman’s attitude towards children is different. The idea that just "talking honestly"…

Read it again, it's phrased as being necessary but not necessarily sufficient. You're arguing it's not sufficient -- and okay, it doesn't have to be.

Without a true and open reckoning of the costs of a path, people can't make good decisions about the path. Will a true and open reckoning of the costs of a path make the path one people choose? No, not on its own. But it's part of it.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#142

Post by Broken_Hippo » Mon, May 03, 2021, 9:01 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #113

Honestly, the real question in all of this is, Why have kids if you're not going to spend time with them and raise them while they're growing up? We already have too many people on the planet, yet it seems there are people who would rather hire nannies, to watch the kids while they both parents are workaholics. I guess I don't see the point.

Because it is a human drive, and for many in the US anyway, working a lot is the only way to get a decently comfortable life - if it gives you this at all. For a decent amount of folks, they just work jobs that keep them from children (nursing and retail work, for example). We could change this a lot of places with worker protection laws. I don't have children, and support more robust support for parents and things like maximum work hours and the like to make sure folks can raise their children, without the poverty that some folks would have when working less.

To complicate it further, birth control isn't made free for everyone and in many areas on earth, sex education is poor if it exists at all - not to mention that abortion services, if they are legal where you are, aren't always available either - for those times when birth control fails or other complications arise.

I'll also say that most of the "we have too many people on the planet" arose from attitudes looking down on others, often from countries of origin, racism, and the like. We know how to help lower birth rates (widely available contraception and sex education) - but we aren't doing this - and we can feed everyone now, but we (as humans on average) don't put it as a priority - as seen by not shipping surplus to folks that would happily eat it.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#143

Post by aklemm » Mon, May 03, 2021, 9:04 PM UTC

djoldman wrote: post #39

Kids' effect on work life is an important topic. I think it's possible that male, man, men can be substituted for female, woman, women in this article and have it be just as true except for this: > But what people without kids may not realize is the extent to which people with kids want their time to be consumed by them. And, on the whole, I’d guess women more so than men. I have no data on that.

Except that society-wide these duties fall disproportionately to women.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#144

Post by golemiprague » Mon, May 03, 2021, 9:05 PM UTC

There are many startups created by people with children where the hours are reasonable. As you grow up you realise that there is no real need to work so many hours, young people just waste their time. Saying that, startups can have unexpected situations where you will need to work late or in strange hours from time to time, so you usually need a supporting partner who can take over when you need to cater for those special events.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#145

Post by causality0 » Mon, May 03, 2021, 9:06 PM UTC

We can’t expect more women to succeed in the startup world until we’re able to talk honestly about how much harder startups are for those who want to spend a lot of time with their kids.

I think the expectation of being able to do both is quite unfair, at least the expectation of being able to do both well. There are many things that aren't compatible with being a cofounder. For example, you're not going to start a successful SaaS company while being a deployed Marine rifleman, or an NFL quarterback, or EMT, or solo truck driver. We need to stop telling people they can not only do anything they want, but everything they want.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#146

Post by munificent » Mon, May 03, 2021, 9:06 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #96

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In your early 20s, a couple years of hard work sounds like an eternity. >In your 30s and later, you realize a couple years is barely a blip on the radar. Another way to look at this is that when your youth is rapidly diminishing you really care about how you spend it but once that ship has sailed you rationalize whatever path you took.

Once it's spent, it doesn't really matter how, except insofar as it's left you with something afterwards. Three people standing side by side, one of them partied their whole twenties, the other focused on career, the last had kids. They're all thirty, so that's the same, but one of them clearly is worse off.

Extend your analogy out in time: Three people in their 90s, laying side by side at their deathbeds. One filled their life with friends and experiences, the other did nothing but work, the other raised children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren.

Now who is the winner and who the loser?

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#147

Post by aklemm » Mon, May 03, 2021, 9:09 PM UTC

Kids are a distraction to intense work. At the same time, becoming a parent is a potential growth experience that is unrivaled and brings value. Healthy kids are a value to society. Non-parents benefit from a society full of healthy children. Parents should be rewarded--or at least equally as compensated--with pay and/or status that tracks with the successes those unburdened with parenting achieve.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#148

Post by lr4444lr » Mon, May 03, 2021, 9:11 PM UTC

bena wrote: post #109

toomuchredbull wrote: post #97

It's also difficult for fathers. I don't know if I buy the "mom's do all the work" line anymore. When I take my kid to soccer practice it's all dads.

I'd have to say it's partly a "grass is greener" kind of thing. Just like that one person at a job who apparently "does all the the work". At least according to them. To hear them tell it, the entire enterprise would collapse if they weren't holding it together by sheer force of will. But surprisingly, the place operated just fine before they were brought on and it'll operate fine after. It's just that we get so focu…

The thing is, before you have kids, which no one AFAIK ever tells you, is you completely take for granted the mental "downtime" of not having to worry about another human being's safety and emotional health (e.g., your example to whit, you're just "sitting" at the game, but do you think your son would really like if you opened up your laptop and totally ignored him for 2 hours?). And the "emotional labor" isn't so much what you're _doing_ for your kid as much as being on constant mental alert yourself. Every minute that your kids are not asleep, you're keeping a spare eye and ear and the attendant mental energy on making sure they're reasonably safe and okay, and that's damn exhausting - even when they're sleeping, you can't go down as soundly, because they might wake up and need you. And those subconscious mental cycles you use to work on problems, the lack of time you just "sit down" when you wake up in the morning or finish breakfast or get home from work to decompress - not to mention the sleep deprivation - REALLY add up.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#149

Post by munificent » Mon, May 03, 2021, 9:11 PM UTC

garmaine wrote: post #63

ravenstine wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of that comes from parents often expressing all the negatives of parenthood rather than the positives. Even the ones who love spending time with their kids, in my experience, talk more about how much attention the kids need, taking them to school, the diaper changes, the crying, and so on. This isn't to say that all parents are like this; I've met some really passionate parents, and my parents relished…

I see this all the time and I really don't understand it. Like, if that's how you feel then why did you have kids? But if I ever say that to someone they'll take offense. I think they just want to vent. Which is why it doesn't make sense to me because I see complaining for the sake of complaining as a negative-utility activity.

> Like, if that's how you feel then why did you have kids?

This is something I've tried to explain to non-parents many times. One of the fundamental weird asymmetries of parenting is the negatives are visible and the positives are hidden.

Visualize someone cleaning a blown-out diaper with shit everywhere and that's pretty obviously a bad experience. Likewise a toddler screaming in their parents' face in a crowded restaurant.

Now visualize a parent looking at their kid while their kid sits there reading a book or sleeps in bed. Boring. But what you don't see is what's going on inside that parent. How incredibly proud they feel to have created a little world around their kid where they feel safe and secure. How amazingly gratifying it is to watch their little one learn skills and grow. Just the immense conduit of love flowing between them.

You can't really see it, but it's all there and the parents all know its there.

> I see complaining for the sake of complaining as a negative-utility activity.

The opposite is true. There is little cause to talk about positive things because they aren't actionable. If you're happy, you don't want to change anything. Talking about negatives is useful because they represent problems that others may be able to help you solve.

Consider a code review: you mostly comment on the code that has something wrong with it.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#150

Post by scooble » Mon, May 03, 2021, 9:11 PM UTC

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #103

I feel the same pressures. Like I'm a failure for not wanting what it feels like so much of silicon valley thinks all of silicon valley wants. But nope, I'm supposed to be passionate about work. This sort of toxic work culture seems worse in startups especially. > Everyone knows kids consume your time. But what people without kids may not realize is the extent to which people with kids want their time to be consumed…

Indeed. I don’t think it really helps women in the workplace if we just go along with the assumption that men are more work focussed and women more family focussed.