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Cryptocurrency Is an Abject Disaster

drewdevault.com

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Re: Cryptocurrency Is an Abject Disaster

#141

Post by knorker »

rubyn00bie wrote: post #104
knorker wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my reading it looks like the "developing world" use case is pure propaganda. E.g. someone investigated the "bitcoin in venezuela!" claim. Actually going there and tracking down use. Turns out it was a bitcoin investor who went to venezuela to do a transaction for the sole purpose of screaming "bitcoin in venezuela" to pump up the price.

> From my reading it looks like the "developing world" use case is pure propaganda. From my perspective, it is not propaganda but it is my opinion. I didn’t come to the conclusion through any scientific rigor, but rather through observation. I have seen a spike in crypto discussion over the past year or two by, my obviously small sample, of thought leaders and entrepreneurs in primarily in Africa. The talk isn’t ever…

Oh yeah, I saw some documentary about bitcoin in Africa. It was so sad. This woman standing in basically a muddy hut, stirring some soup, and saying how she put everything into bitcoin because they say it always goes up. She had no idea what it is.

Someone basically tricked her into buying lottery tickets. (who knows, maybe it'll work out just fine)

That's not even close to "using bitcoin". To a rounding error nobody is actually using bitcoin (even less the other cryptocurrencies, since it's even more rare to be able to), except to commit crimes.

Re: Cryptocurrency Is an Abject Disaster

#142

Post by tim333 »

HPsquared wrote: post #31
SeanLuke wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason the dollar is a currency is because of the existence of a force (in this case, the Fed) that can tamp down speculation and deflation. Cryptocurrency doesn't have this, and that is its central failing.

What's inherently bad about deflation? It's happened routinely throughout most of history until recently. Speculation is a good thing, it's a form of entrepreneurship. Example of historic deflation: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Deflation

The example in that link

>prices of goods, materials and labor decreased, although at a low rate of less than 2% annually

you can deal with. Crypto style 50% drop in months type deflation would make debts in that currency unpayable.

Re: Cryptocurrency Is an Abject Disaster

#143

Post by whywhywhywhy »

knorker wrote: post #49
cslarson wrote: post #24

This is really a complaint against Proof of Work based consensus protocols. "Cryptocurrency" is also kind of a dumb term. Everyone seems to still think this is about creating new currencies. Really we are talking about tokens that represent some component of a system . Yes that is general because the base for experimentation with tokens is absurdly vast. God we need to move beyond thinking about Bitcoin! Really this…

> This is really a complaint against Proof of Work based consensus protocols. I wouldn't say so. The multi-level marketing ponzi scheme things would still be present. > "Cryptocurrency" is also kind of a dumb term. Yes, but "crypto" means something else. > Everyone seems to still think this is about creating new currencies. It's not. It's about greed and creating money for yourself. Currencies are just more direct. E…

> It's not. It's about greed and creating money for yourself

Am I not supposed to be doing this? I mean I have rent to pay and food to buy.

Re: Cryptocurrency Is an Abject Disaster

#144

Post by shkkmo »

doggosphere wrote: post #126
shkkmo wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see plenty of value in many of those issues. Some appear to be just jargon or beg the question. I see zero evidence that cryptocurrency is necessary or even beneficial in solving any of those problems.

That's because you think your currency is secure forever. Ask Argentinians, Turks, Venezuelans, Zimbabweans, etc. what they think about their central banks.

I don't think my, or any, national currency is secure forever, but neither is any cryptocurrency. Currently national currencies are, on average, far more stable and secure places to hold assets than any cryptocurrency.

If your national isn't as stable as you like, you can more easily use a different national currency. If your country has capital controls that prohibit this, then you are using cryptocurrency to break the law.

My contention is that so far the only use cases cryptocurrency has been successful in are illegal. If the legal restrictions in those areas were removed, cryptocurrency would no longer be useful there.

Re: Cryptocurrency Is an Abject Disaster

#145

Post by baggy_trough »

acdha wrote: post #132
baggy_trough wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"they’re directly one of the most common causes of ... lowered quality of life" - what is the basis of this statement? It seems like a manifest absurdity.

It makes more sense if you don't trim the quote. Cars directly cause a large number of injuries and fatalities every year, and that's mostly premature — people who had decades of healthy life ahead of them until a vehicle incident, as opposed to someone in their 80s who died of cancer before heart disease got them. I included lower quality of life because while safety and medical improvements have reduced the number…

OK, that makes more sense. However, your comment does not take into consideration the benefits from cars, which should be considered to accurately assess their overall effect on quality of life.

Re: Cryptocurrency Is an Abject Disaster

#146

Post by knorker »

spir wrote: post #19

Cryptocurrency is not an abject disaster. Drew is right that proof of work mining is expensive and has serious negative externalities. Drew is also right that cryptocurrency, via its growth, hype, and decentralized and self-sovereign nature, is often an ideal vehicle for certain kinds of criminal activity, including pump-and-dump fraud or ransomware. Drew is right (perhaps indirectly) that many or most well-meaning c…

> At this point, if you think crypto is wholesale a scam, bad for the world, or a fad, you're simply misinformed.

Could you inform us, instead? Nothing you said contradicted this.

Re: Cryptocurrency Is an Abject Disaster

#147

Post by pk_kinetic »

reducesuffering wrote: post #128
pk_kinetic wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who talk in a National Assembly have real influence on laws so conflict of interest is a real problem. If the chair of the SEC comes out for or against crypto (or any financial product) of course we should know what investments he holds. We’re arguing about a subject on a message board. It’s not going to have any influence whatsoever on the price or whether it fails or not. I would hate to have to disclose the…

You don’t have to. However, TFA explicitly asked you for this discussion. You’re free to join the thousands of other discussions where there’s no ask to disclose stake. There’s value in one that does.

I haven’t made a case either for or against crypto either way in this thread, except to state that I have some crypto.

There might be value in a discussion that asks for disclosure. I’m not sure this discussion is working as intended though, judging the amounts of disclosures in the comments. Just an observation.

Re: Cryptocurrency Is an Abject Disaster

#148

Post by knorker »

eric_cc wrote: post #83
knorker wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> lol what? Is US dollar moral? What exactly is your argument? > Is it not also "smoke-and-mirrors" by your definition since it's just paper that we all believe has value? USD is backed by the mostly aligned incentives of the whole world in general, and the biggest company in the world in particular, and by the largest military might and nuclear arsenal, ultimately. USD is paper and bits we believe has value. BTC is…

> USD is paper and bits we believe has value. Speak for yourself. > BTC is bits that most people believe doesn't have value. This is changing rapidly, is it not?

>> USD is paper and bits we believe has value.

> Speak for yourself.

Raaa-haaaight. Next time you don't believe USD has value you'll skip picking up that $100 bill on the street. When you get robbed you'll laugh and give the robber your worthless USD and say "good luck using this for anything!".

>> BTC is bits that most people believe doesn't have value.

> This is changing rapidly, is it not?

I wouldn't say so, no.

Re: Cryptocurrency Is an Abject Disaster

#149

Post by shkkmo »

eric_cc wrote: post #137
shkkmo wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see plenty of value in many of those issues. Some appear to be just jargon or beg the question. I see zero evidence that cryptocurrency is necessary or even beneficial in solving any of those problems.

you don’t believe a protocol like ethereum is beneficial to the above problems? How would you solve it without ethereum (or similar) protocol?

How is ethereum necessary or beneficial in solving any of them?

Re: Cryptocurrency Is an Abject Disaster

#150

Post by knorker »

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #143
knorker wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is really a complaint against Proof of Work based consensus protocols. I wouldn't say so. The multi-level marketing ponzi scheme things would still be present. > "Cryptocurrency" is also kind of a dumb term. Yes, but "crypto" means something else. > Everyone seems to still think this is about creating new currencies. It's not. It's about greed and creating money for yourself. Currencies are just more direct. E…

> It's not. It's about greed and creating money for yourself Am I not supposed to be doing this? I mean I have rent to pay and food to buy.

Capitalism is about rewarding people for creating value. It's the best economic theory ever invented, because it aligns your goals with the goals of everyone else.

Bitcoin speculation does not create value.

The stock market does (e.g. see research on potato and onion futures).

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